6 ms·

I was wrong

82 points by superchink 14y ago

R_Edward 14y ago
Good on ya, mate. Not only issuing an apology, but taking positive steps to make things right. If only more people had that strength of character. Now if I could just get you to reconsider releasing GasCubby for Android... :)
- deleted 14y ago
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jconley 14y ago
It seems like you're still making a lot of decisions without knowing why. You know what they say about assumptions... Without analytics data you really have no idea if this is a positive, negative, or neutral change. The vocal minority of complainers are loud in the consumer software world. They are one of many signals to help make product decisions, but should not be considered authoritative. Get real analytics data and trust it within the appropriate level of significance.
- unreal37 14y ago
  Agree. OP is trying to be noble by not having analytics, but then you're making decisions in the dark without data. Either code your own analytics, or pick the best platform for you. "None" is not a viable option.
sarah2079 14y ago
I have added ads to formerly ad-free apps, but I always, always make the ads conditional on whether the user is a new downloader or an updater in these cases. This is not that hard to do, and it is not worth upsetting existing users to get those extra ad impressions.
karatekidd32v 14y ago
as a side note, appboy does some great analytics without using udid
awolf 14y ago
>I don’t have analytics in Timer since I’ve had a hard time finding a good analytics provider that doesn’t do shady things with the data they collect Check out Parse. They aren't an analytics provider. They provide a generic backend API that you can use with your apps to store and fetch whatever data you desire. For the number of user's you're probably working with, and the number of events you'll want to log, you will most likely stay under their 1,000,000 free requests per month (and if you don't, the $200/mo expense will probably be acceptable to you given your app's monthly revenue). >If Apple provided a reliable way to determine who had already paid, I would have just automatically disabled ads for people who had paid. Two things here: first, you should have only shown the adds to new users. That would have been the safest play to avoid backlash from existing users. Second, this is why it's a great idea to track "firstLaunchDate" in the NSUserDefaults in 1.0 versions of your future apps. With that single piece of information you would have been able to target exactly who sees the adds and who doesn't. Edit: I wanted to add I think you might be making a mistake backing down at this point. It seems that all of the problems you mention in this post relate to some small (yet vocal) percentage of your existing users being upset with the recent changes. That's a temporary problem, and probably not that big of a deal at this point since you've already absorbed the majority of the backlash you're going to get. If you think the changes you made in your latest version are the right direction for your product in the long run, then I'd stay the course.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I don't believe there's a way to detect new users, only new installations, which isn't the same thing. Storing and checking a "first run" date will still result in showing ads to paying users if they reinstall your app or install it on a new device.
  - awolf 14y ago
    Yup, but it's definitely close enough - especially contrasted against the OP's chosen approach of doing no targeting whatsoever. Also, iCloud's NSUbiquitousKeyValueStore gives us NSUserDefault-like data storage that syncs across the user's iCloud account (iOS 5 and up required). This makes the firstLaunchData approximation very near to perfect.
georgelawrence 14y ago
I added AirPush to one of my free apps, and triggered a firestorm of one-star reviews. After pushing an update that removed AirPush, several users actually took the time to go back and revise their one-star review up to 5 stars. Never underestimate the passion app users have about ads. I suppose a lot of us devs have learned this lesson the hard way.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
No offense to the OP but the customer reaction seems obvious. I've thought about doing this with my apps before and then thought about how I would feel as a paying customer if the developer suddenly thrust ads upon me and asked me to pay to remove them again (or didn't give that option). If you want to put ads in an app people have paid for the only real solution is to release a separate "lite" version with ads. It might not seem like the best decision for your business but it's better than pissing off the people that cared enough to pay for your app in the first place.
- awolf 14y ago
  What if you're only going to potentially piss of a percentage of a percent of your users? In the OP's case this seems to be the case.
  - dbrian 14y ago
    Depends on how vocal that percentage is. All of the reviews on the App Store are now complaints about ads. Once you've set expectations you can't go back without backlash.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    What techniques would you suggest for determining that percentage ahead of time?
mwetzler 14y ago
We're here for you buddy! we started Keen IO specifically to address gaps in analytics for mobile. it's easy to record those user interactions with our iOS SDK. And it's free for small apps like yours. if you want to chat analytics, let me know. Thanks for sharing your story. I don't think failure stories get shared enough!
antr 14y ago
as a user who paid for this app, I'm quite frustrated with the update. this greedy decision takes up screen real estate which I used for one additional timer and the grid layout was one of the main reasons why i paid for the app. i just hope he reverses all this changes as i'm not paying for additional sounds, themes or whatever other vanity ad-hoc app.
lazugod 14y ago
> Developers dream of that kind of tap through rate because it generally means more revenue, but I wasn’t charging for the ads, so the tap through rate didn’t impact my bottom line at all. Why include advertising if you're not charging for it?
eps 14y ago
> had a hard time finding a good analytics provider that doesn’t do shady things with the data they collect And where did his ethics go when he decided to stick ads in the app?
- IheartApplesDix 14y ago
  "Ooops, I sent paying customers ad impressions. Hrm, that doesn't seem to work." How coy.
- clarky07 14y ago
  Really? Putting ads in an app is somehow unethical?
  - huhtenberg 14y ago
    Of course it is. It's not just "putting ads" it's linking with 3rd party ad libraries that can do whatever the hell they want under the umbrella of this dev's app. How is this even remotely better than letting some other 3rd party gather app's usage data? It's absolutely the same shit, only sideways. If he had a problem with latter, recognizing a problem with former should've been a no-brainer. Except if there wasn't some money involved.
    - clarky07 14y ago
      Of course? Really? Maybe if you think there is a problem with the analytics then it is a problem, but there are clearly lots of people who don't have a problem with the analytics. I personally don't have a problem with either as both a user and a dev. To say that ads are unethical without even any discussion strikes me as absurd.
chj 14y ago
you can not please everyone. some users can give you a one star review simply because of a minor bug or missing feature. do what is good for your business.
b1daly 14y ago
I totally get the annoyance of previous paid users. But man, the irrational nature of human psychology around price and paying for things beggars disbelief. For anyone that owns an iPhone 99¢ is truly a pittance. People's feelings about what is fair totally overwhelm any sense of proportion or of what's at stake in a given situation.
clarky07 14y ago
I'm confused as to why he'd do this. It's trivial to set a flag saying if they launched it or a date first installed. Why give ads to people who paid? On the other hand, I feel for the dev, as the reviews are also absurd. The ad took up 1 of 15 timer spots. It was hardly obtrusive. I know the feeling though. I've had tons of 1 star reviews in a free app I put ads in (only to new free users mind you) just because it has ads in it. IT'S FREE you entitled jerk. Yet nobody pays the .99 to remove the ads.

82 points by superchink 14y ago

Good on ya, mate. Not only issuing an apology, but taking positive steps to make things right. If only more people had that strength of character. Now if I could just get you to reconsider releasing GasCubby for Android... :)

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

jconley 14y ago

It seems like you're still making a lot of decisions without knowing why. You know what they say about assumptions... Without analytics data you really have no idea if this is a positive, negative, or neutral change. The vocal minority of complainers are loud in the consumer software world. They are one of many signals to help make product decisions, but should not be considered authoritative. Get real analytics data and trust it within the appropriate level of significance.

unreal37 14y ago
Agree. OP is trying to be noble by not having analytics, but then you're making decisions in the dark without data. Either code your own analytics, or pick the best platform for you. "None" is not a viable option.

sarah2079 14y ago

I have added ads to formerly ad-free apps, but I always, always make the ads conditional on whether the user is a new downloader or an updater in these cases. This is not that hard to do, and it is not worth upsetting existing users to get those extra ad impressions.

karatekidd32v 14y ago

as a side note, appboy does some great analytics without using udid

awolf 14y ago

>I don’t have analytics in Timer since I’ve had a hard time finding a good analytics provider that doesn’t do shady things with the data they collect Check out Parse. They aren't an analytics provider. They provide a generic backend API that you can use with your apps to store and fetch whatever data you desire. For the number of user's you're probably working with, and the number of events you'll want to log, you will most likely stay under their 1,000,000 free requests per month (and if you don't, the $200/mo expense will probably be acceptable to you given your app's monthly revenue). >If Apple provided a reliable way to determine who had already paid, I would have just automatically disabled ads for people who had paid. Two things here: first, you should have only shown the adds to new users. That would have been the safest play to avoid backlash from existing users. Second, this is why it's a great idea to track "firstLaunchDate" in the NSUserDefaults in 1.0 versions of your future apps. With that single piece of information you would have been able to target exactly who sees the adds and who doesn't. Edit: I wanted to add I think you might be making a mistake backing down at this point. It seems that all of the problems you mention in this post relate to some small (yet vocal) percentage of your existing users being upset with the recent changes. That's a temporary problem, and probably not that big of a deal at this point since you've already absorbed the majority of the backlash you're going to get. If you think the changes you made in your latest version are the right direction for your product in the long run, then I'd stay the course.

mikeash 14y ago
I don't believe there's a way to detect new users, only new installations, which isn't the same thing. Storing and checking a "first run" date will still result in showing ads to paying users if they reinstall your app or install it on a new device.
- awolf 14y ago
  Yup, but it's definitely close enough - especially contrasted against the OP's chosen approach of doing no targeting whatsoever. Also, iCloud's NSUbiquitousKeyValueStore gives us NSUserDefault-like data storage that syncs across the user's iCloud account (iOS 5 and up required). This makes the firstLaunchData approximation very near to perfect.

georgelawrence 14y ago

I added AirPush to one of my free apps, and triggered a firestorm of one-star reviews. After pushing an update that removed AirPush, several users actually took the time to go back and revise their one-star review up to 5 stars. Never underestimate the passion app users have about ads. I suppose a lot of us devs have learned this lesson the hard way.

k-mcgrady 14y ago

No offense to the OP but the customer reaction seems obvious. I've thought about doing this with my apps before and then thought about how I would feel as a paying customer if the developer suddenly thrust ads upon me and asked me to pay to remove them again (or didn't give that option). If you want to put ads in an app people have paid for the only real solution is to release a separate "lite" version with ads. It might not seem like the best decision for your business but it's better than pissing off the people that cared enough to pay for your app in the first place.

awolf 14y ago
What if you're only going to potentially piss of a percentage of a percent of your users? In the OP's case this seems to be the case.
- dbrian 14y ago
  Depends on how vocal that percentage is. All of the reviews on the App Store are now complaints about ads. Once you've set expectations you can't go back without backlash.
- rhizome 14y ago
  What techniques would you suggest for determining that percentage ahead of time?

mwetzler 14y ago

We're here for you buddy! we started Keen IO specifically to address gaps in analytics for mobile. it's easy to record those user interactions with our iOS SDK. And it's free for small apps like yours. if you want to chat analytics, let me know. Thanks for sharing your story. I don't think failure stories get shared enough!

antr 14y ago

as a user who paid for this app, I'm quite frustrated with the update. this greedy decision takes up screen real estate which I used for one additional timer and the grid layout was one of the main reasons why i paid for the app. i just hope he reverses all this changes as i'm not paying for additional sounds, themes or whatever other vanity ad-hoc app.

lazugod 14y ago

> Developers dream of that kind of tap through rate because it generally means more revenue, but I wasn’t charging for the ads, so the tap through rate didn’t impact my bottom line at all. Why include advertising if you're not charging for it?

eps 14y ago

> had a hard time finding a good analytics provider that doesn’t do shady things with the data they collect And where did his ethics go when he decided to stick ads in the app?

IheartApplesDix 14y ago
"Ooops, I sent paying customers ad impressions. Hrm, that doesn't seem to work." How coy.
clarky07 14y ago
Really? Putting ads in an app is somehow unethical?
- huhtenberg 14y ago
  Of course it is. It's not just "putting ads" it's linking with 3rd party ad libraries that can do whatever the hell they want under the umbrella of this dev's app. How is this even remotely better than letting some other 3rd party gather app's usage data? It's absolutely the same shit, only sideways. If he had a problem with latter, recognizing a problem with former should've been a no-brainer. Except if there wasn't some money involved.
  - clarky07 14y ago
    Of course? Really? Maybe if you think there is a problem with the analytics then it is a problem, but there are clearly lots of people who don't have a problem with the analytics. I personally don't have a problem with either as both a user and a dev. To say that ads are unethical without even any discussion strikes me as absurd.

chj 14y ago

you can not please everyone. some users can give you a one star review simply because of a minor bug or missing feature. do what is good for your business.

b1daly 14y ago

I totally get the annoyance of previous paid users. But man, the irrational nature of human psychology around price and paying for things beggars disbelief. For anyone that owns an iPhone 99¢ is truly a pittance. People's feelings about what is fair totally overwhelm any sense of proportion or of what's at stake in a given situation.

clarky07 14y ago

I'm confused as to why he'd do this. It's trivial to set a flag saying if they launched it or a date first installed. Why give ads to people who paid? On the other hand, I feel for the dev, as the reviews are also absurd. The ad took up 1 of 15 timer spots. It was hardly obtrusive. I know the feeling though. I've had tons of 1 star reviews in a free app I put ads in (only to new free users mind you) just because it has ads in it. IT'S FREE you entitled jerk. Yet nobody pays the .99 to remove the ads.