3 ms·

"seeing little people" is such a hyper specific visual effect, it begs questions. Since I am well aware how my mind fills in gaps in the visual field with attem

by ggm 4mo ago

"seeing little people" is such a hyper specific visual effect, it begs questions. Since I am well aware how my mind fills in gaps in the visual field with attempts to map what I would expect or want to see (try holding your head rigidly ahead and look with a steady gaze at a near field pattern like floor tiles to experience your brain filling in the missing pieces in the field) I ask: what could this actually be? For instance, when I get (got: my blood pressure is treated) migraine visual effects, I would say "lightning bolt" but thats just a textual analogue/simile. What I actually saw was more complex than that: lightning is white. My effect was polychrome. When I had posterior vitreous detachment (PVD), the visual effect was as if I was looking at TV "snow" from the analogue days, combined with a shape unquestionably like red blood cells. Was I seeing blood? I am told no: I was seeing small points inside the focal zone of my eye, below the minimum resolving size, and the optical path turns points into rings. So is "little people" moving stimulation of the nerve endings interpreted as "walking" and a strong vertical alignment for some reason? Is the colour an aspect of rods and cones being involved, or the nerves going to rods and cones being differentially effected?

altairprime 4mo ago
One wonders how it would affect someone who has been blind from birth: would they hear little people? Would their optic system be activated by the unknown compounds? etc.
- ElProlactin 4mo ago
  There ought to be funding for a study like this.
allears 4mo ago
I've heard of this before, including a first person account, and the effects are apparently that specific. Lots of people consistently report the same thing. It's not just moving patterns, it's actually a bunch of tiny people running around, climbing on the furniture, etc.
- ggm 4mo ago
  I'd be asking if the back record had hyper specific reports of people in clothing which was period appropriate for how "little people" are ideated, or if instead they were tiny angels and daemons (or skeletons) because how you culturally project what you see would inform how they describe it. I very much doubt that in future times, people will be reporting seeing tiny people in North Face fleece tops and leggings, or with Asymmetrical haircuts and goth make-up but you never know..
- nilamo 4mo ago
  This sounds like the HBO Common Side Effects almost to a tee
bozhark 4mo ago
You’re thinking perception When it’s not perceived from a visual cue
not_kurt_godel 4mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic_bolete_mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic_bolete_mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliputian_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliputian_hallucination
ammario 4mo ago
Similar phenomena consistently reported in high doses of Benadryl: little spiders.
- moi2388 4mo ago
  Oh that sounds much less fun.
drain 4mo ago
Yep, there might be two factors here. From what you describe in your experiences, these seem like real artifacts that occur due to physical changes happening on and around the eyeball? (Photopsia seems to be what you describe). In my experience when hallucinating (from sleep deprivation), it is the brain failing to correctly interpret patterns seen through the eyes. For e.g., I would think I see a cardboard box on the ground ahead of me, but then when I get closer I realise it is just dirt of different shades that was perceived as a 3d box. Similar experience when hallucinating people. In my mind I imagine my friend with a certain colour shirt, then during a period of sleep deprivation, I think I see him on the trail ahead of me. But it was just a rock that was a similar colour. Do hallucinogenics typically affect the brain and also the actual optics? Maybe it is some combination that is causing the perception of "little people".
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
ridgeguy 4mo ago
Reconsider the blood cell visualization thing. I've had bilateral PVD. Each was accompanied by an initial few minutes of seeing a few dozen small dark spots that had lighter grey centers. Most visible when I looked at the sky. They all disappeared after a few minutes. I think these were RBCs from minimal retinal blood vessel tearing at the PVD events. Human RBCs are ~6µm - 8µm diameter. Human retinal light sensing cells range from ~0.5µm - 10µm diameter, depending on type and position. They're close packed. Given the geometry, RBCs leaking onto retinal cells should cast shadows that could be resolved as images. And that's right where leakage is most likely to occur during a PVD event.
- jaggederest 4mo ago
  Slightly off topic, but on a clear blue sky it's possible to directly visualize the white blood cells running around on your retina. I love watching them go about business, and I think I heard it can even be used diagnostically to do a manual WBC count in extremis for leukoproliferative disease. They're pretty tiny though, I'm not sure if you'd actually see a center in the RBCs
  - ridgeguy 4mo ago
    The lighter centers could have been diffraction around the object and reconvergence. Or some kind of signal processing effect at the retinal level. The retinal vessel network is a fun thing to inspect as you say. It works best for me when the sun is high in the sky. The bright, featureless blue brings out the branching network very well.
- ggm 4mo ago
  Interesting. I told the specialist what I'd seen, they said "not blood cells" but I'm open to re-consideration. I got a pretty complete ocular examination both times, the iris dilation and "I must be a vampire I cannot handle sunlight" is a joy.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 4mo ago
    Floaters? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater
plastic3169 4mo ago
> Since I am well aware how my mind fills in gaps in the visual field with attempts to map what I would expect or want to see Your mind also creates the visual field. It is not real even though it is usually quite consistent. Brain fills the gaps after it has filled all the rest. Just a handy visualization of a world that is likely to be a lot more chaotic.
sugarkjube 4mo ago
> For instance, when I get (got: my blood pressure is treated) migraine visual effects, I would say "lightning bolt" but thats just a textual analogue/simile. What I actually saw was more complex than that: lightning is white. My effect was polychrome. What you describe seems to refer to scintillating scotoma, which appears to be well known and documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma I personally have my doubts whether it has to do with blood pressure (i had it while on medication and normal blood pressure), or that it's generated by the brain, but lack the time/motivation/skill to research this further.
- ggm 4mo ago
  If anything I said implied this was a novel, new phenomena, I withdraw that implication completely. I was attempting to discuss how I subjectively experience and would describe it, and the effects on documentation of that description, not that I saw any perceptual effect nobody else saw.
- spidercat 4mo ago
  >I personally have my doubts whether it has to do with blood pressure If you're referring to scintillating scotoma/visual migraine aura, it's thought to be the result of what's called a cortical spreading depression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_spreading_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_spreading_depression It's really fascinating stuff (and pretty unnerving, speaking as someone who experiences migraines with aura). On the blood pressure connection, propranolol (a beta blocker often used to treat high blood pressure and anxiety) is often prescribed as a prophylactic for migraines, but I'm unsure of the preventative mechanism(s) at play.

by ggm 4mo ago

altairprime 4mo ago

One wonders how it would affect someone who has been blind from birth: would they hear little people? Would their optic system be activated by the unknown compounds? etc.

ElProlactin 4mo ago
There ought to be funding for a study like this.

allears 4mo ago

I've heard of this before, including a first person account, and the effects are apparently that specific. Lots of people consistently report the same thing. It's not just moving patterns, it's actually a bunch of tiny people running around, climbing on the furniture, etc.

ggm 4mo ago
I'd be asking if the back record had hyper specific reports of people in clothing which was period appropriate for how "little people" are ideated, or if instead they were tiny angels and daemons (or skeletons) because how you culturally project what you see would inform how they describe it. I very much doubt that in future times, people will be reporting seeing tiny people in North Face fleece tops and leggings, or with Asymmetrical haircuts and goth make-up but you never know..
nilamo 4mo ago
This sounds like the HBO Common Side Effects almost to a tee

bozhark 4mo ago

You’re thinking perception When it’s not perceived from a visual cue

not_kurt_godel 4mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic_bolete_mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic_bolete_mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliputian_hallucination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliputian_hallucination

ammario 4mo ago

Similar phenomena consistently reported in high doses of Benadryl: little spiders.

moi2388 4mo ago
Oh that sounds much less fun.

drain 4mo ago

Yep, there might be two factors here. From what you describe in your experiences, these seem like real artifacts that occur due to physical changes happening on and around the eyeball? (Photopsia seems to be what you describe). In my experience when hallucinating (from sleep deprivation), it is the brain failing to correctly interpret patterns seen through the eyes. For e.g., I would think I see a cardboard box on the ground ahead of me, but then when I get closer I realise it is just dirt of different shades that was perceived as a 3d box. Similar experience when hallucinating people. In my mind I imagine my friend with a certain colour shirt, then during a period of sleep deprivation, I think I see him on the trail ahead of me. But it was just a rock that was a similar colour. Do hallucinogenics typically affect the brain and also the actual optics? Maybe it is some combination that is causing the perception of "little people".

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

ridgeguy 4mo ago

Reconsider the blood cell visualization thing. I've had bilateral PVD. Each was accompanied by an initial few minutes of seeing a few dozen small dark spots that had lighter grey centers. Most visible when I looked at the sky. They all disappeared after a few minutes. I think these were RBCs from minimal retinal blood vessel tearing at the PVD events. Human RBCs are ~6µm - 8µm diameter. Human retinal light sensing cells range from ~0.5µm - 10µm diameter, depending on type and position. They're close packed. Given the geometry, RBCs leaking onto retinal cells should cast shadows that could be resolved as images. And that's right where leakage is most likely to occur during a PVD event.

jaggederest 4mo ago
Slightly off topic, but on a clear blue sky it's possible to directly visualize the white blood cells running around on your retina. I love watching them go about business, and I think I heard it can even be used diagnostically to do a manual WBC count in extremis for leukoproliferative disease. They're pretty tiny though, I'm not sure if you'd actually see a center in the RBCs
- ridgeguy 4mo ago
  The lighter centers could have been diffraction around the object and reconvergence. Or some kind of signal processing effect at the retinal level. The retinal vessel network is a fun thing to inspect as you say. It works best for me when the sun is high in the sky. The bright, featureless blue brings out the branching network very well.
ggm 4mo ago
Interesting. I told the specialist what I'd seen, they said "not blood cells" but I'm open to re-consideration. I got a pretty complete ocular examination both times, the iris dilation and "I must be a vampire I cannot handle sunlight" is a joy.
- BuyMyBitcoins 4mo ago
  Floaters? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater

plastic3169 4mo ago

> Since I am well aware how my mind fills in gaps in the visual field with attempts to map what I would expect or want to see Your mind also creates the visual field. It is not real even though it is usually quite consistent. Brain fills the gaps after it has filled all the rest. Just a handy visualization of a world that is likely to be a lot more chaotic.

sugarkjube 4mo ago

> For instance, when I get (got: my blood pressure is treated) migraine visual effects, I would say "lightning bolt" but thats just a textual analogue/simile. What I actually saw was more complex than that: lightning is white. My effect was polychrome. What you describe seems to refer to scintillating scotoma, which appears to be well known and documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma I personally have my doubts whether it has to do with blood pressure (i had it while on medication and normal blood pressure), or that it's generated by the brain, but lack the time/motivation/skill to research this further.

ggm 4mo ago
If anything I said implied this was a novel, new phenomena, I withdraw that implication completely. I was attempting to discuss how I subjectively experience and would describe it, and the effects on documentation of that description, not that I saw any perceptual effect nobody else saw.
spidercat 4mo ago
>I personally have my doubts whether it has to do with blood pressure If you're referring to scintillating scotoma/visual migraine aura, it's thought to be the result of what's called a cortical spreading depression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_spreading_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_spreading_depression It's really fascinating stuff (and pretty unnerving, speaking as someone who experiences migraines with aura). On the blood pressure connection, propranolol (a beta blocker often used to treat high blood pressure and anxiety) is often prescribed as a prophylactic for migraines, but I'm unsure of the preventative mechanism(s) at play.