4 ms·

"Many countries"? Do you have any evidence for this statement? I think that actually the US is an outlier.

lazide 4mo ago
Here is a case study from Greece in the ‘20’s, but all you need to do is google ‘ethnic cleansing’ and dig in, and you’ll see government data sources (including census data) all played a part. [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589] “The census was conducted in a period of successive wars and rapid territorial expansion. We focus on the handling of the census data for Macedonia, a newly annexed territory that would soon become the site of the first instance of large-scale ethnic cleansing in modern Europe.”
- mthoms 4mo ago
  In the original comment, you used the present tense. I think that's what was being questioned.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    As I said, look around. China has been (and still is) doing it today with Uighurs. It’s not a new behavior.
    - mthoms 4mo ago
      Of course. But the specific claim you made was about many countries currently using census data to "round up and murder" some "specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc." I'm not arguing that you don't a valid point - broadly speaking. You do. But you made a very specific claim, and that was what was being questioned. That's all.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        Reading is fundamental. I made no such claim. I said many were using it to target people (which they are), and some are even using it to murder people using that data. Which they are. Or do you think that is actually not happening right now?
        deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
        mthoms 4mo ago
        >Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc. You were asked to back up this claim but haven't cited an example of any country currently "using census data" to "round up and murder" people. Is China currently using census data to do horrible things? Are other countries? Maybe. I have no idea. I wouldn't be all that surprised TBH. You may be correct for all I know. But that's not the point... The point is that you made a very specific claim and you still haven't provided any specific examples or evidence.
        lazide 4mo ago
        Lol, yet there is the evidence right in the thread. Talk about obtuse. You even admit you aren’t even looking into them. What’s the point?
dnautics 4mo ago
really? bosnia 1990s, turkey early 1900s, pogroms all over europe in the 19th century, holodomor, china with tibet and uighurs, germany tabulating data on the jews with the help of ibm...
inigyou 4mo ago
When Germany invaded the Netherlands they found it extremely convenient that the Netherlands had a nice centralised paper filing system telling them exactly where all the Jews lived. The Holocaust proceeded more efficiently in the Netherlands than it had in Germany.
- katbyte 4mo ago
  Maybe an example that isn’t almost 100 years old ?
  - hackable_sand 4mo ago
    [flagged]
- makeitdouble 4mo ago
  That papertrail mattered less than how you make it sound. France also sent people to the Germans during the occupation, and there was very little info needed. The gov wasn't caring much about due process or lengthy and accurate investigations anyway.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    These arguments are bizarre. Is it easier and more convenient to round up people when you have a literal list of people, along with the attributes that someone might want to round them up based on? Of course. Is it still possible to do it without said list? Yes, of course. It is just harder. And more likely some or many will be missed, if those attributes aren’t super obvious and impossible to change. So why make it easier?
    - makeitdouble 4mo ago
      It is indeed a bizarre discussion: nazis round up people with or without these lists, anyone could point the finger at a neighbor and they'd be gone tomorrow. The question becomes if it mattered whether the people sent in were actually Jewish or depraved or whatever motive was invoked. To me it doesn't matter, it is was horrible either way.
wahnfrieden 4mo ago
If someone says the holocaust happened, do you demand evidence of the claim? Because that’s exactly what you’ve done here
- XorNot 4mo ago
  Can you give an example of an extermination program which was thwarted by a lack of accurate census data? "The Nazis used a data source to implement an extermination program" is not a statement which proves that your problem was the existence of a data source.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    [flagged]
  - notpushkin 4mo ago
    The claim was not that the census is instrumental to e.g. ethnic cleansing, simply that the (micro?)data can be used that way.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      And it of course helps, if accurate, as it tells you exactly where to go, how many there are, etc. It’s basically cheating.

Here is a case study from Greece in the ‘20’s, but all you need to do is google ‘ethnic cleansing’ and dig in, and you’ll see government data sources (including census data) all played a part. [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589] “The census was conducted in a period of successive wars and rapid territorial expansion. We focus on the handling of the census data for Macedonia, a newly annexed territory that would soon become the site of the first instance of large-scale ethnic cleansing in modern Europe.”

mthoms 4mo ago
In the original comment, you used the present tense. I think that's what was being questioned.
- lazide 4mo ago
  As I said, look around. China has been (and still is) doing it today with Uighurs. It’s not a new behavior.
  - mthoms 4mo ago
    Of course. But the specific claim you made was about many countries currently using census data to "round up and murder" some "specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc." I'm not arguing that you don't a valid point - broadly speaking. You do. But you made a very specific claim, and that was what was being questioned. That's all.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      Reading is fundamental. I made no such claim. I said many were using it to target people (which they are), and some are even using it to murder people using that data. Which they are. Or do you think that is actually not happening right now?
      - deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
      - mthoms 4mo ago
        >Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc. You were asked to back up this claim but haven't cited an example of any country currently "using census data" to "round up and murder" people. Is China currently using census data to do horrible things? Are other countries? Maybe. I have no idea. I wouldn't be all that surprised TBH. You may be correct for all I know. But that's not the point... The point is that you made a very specific claim and you still haven't provided any specific examples or evidence.
        lazide 4mo ago
        Lol, yet there is the evidence right in the thread. Talk about obtuse. You even admit you aren’t even looking into them. What’s the point?

dnautics 4mo ago

really? bosnia 1990s, turkey early 1900s, pogroms all over europe in the 19th century, holodomor, china with tibet and uighurs, germany tabulating data on the jews with the help of ibm...

inigyou 4mo ago

When Germany invaded the Netherlands they found it extremely convenient that the Netherlands had a nice centralised paper filing system telling them exactly where all the Jews lived. The Holocaust proceeded more efficiently in the Netherlands than it had in Germany.

katbyte 4mo ago
Maybe an example that isn’t almost 100 years old ?
- hackable_sand 4mo ago
  [flagged]
makeitdouble 4mo ago
That papertrail mattered less than how you make it sound. France also sent people to the Germans during the occupation, and there was very little info needed. The gov wasn't caring much about due process or lengthy and accurate investigations anyway.
- lazide 4mo ago
  These arguments are bizarre. Is it easier and more convenient to round up people when you have a literal list of people, along with the attributes that someone might want to round them up based on? Of course. Is it still possible to do it without said list? Yes, of course. It is just harder. And more likely some or many will be missed, if those attributes aren’t super obvious and impossible to change. So why make it easier?
  - makeitdouble 4mo ago
    It is indeed a bizarre discussion: nazis round up people with or without these lists, anyone could point the finger at a neighbor and they'd be gone tomorrow. The question becomes if it mattered whether the people sent in were actually Jewish or depraved or whatever motive was invoked. To me it doesn't matter, it is was horrible either way.

wahnfrieden 4mo ago

If someone says the holocaust happened, do you demand evidence of the claim? Because that’s exactly what you’ve done here

XorNot 4mo ago
Can you give an example of an extermination program which was thwarted by a lack of accurate census data? "The Nazis used a data source to implement an extermination program" is not a statement which proves that your problem was the existence of a data source.
- lazide 4mo ago
  [flagged]
- notpushkin 4mo ago
  The claim was not that the census is instrumental to e.g. ethnic cleansing, simply that the (micro?)data can be used that way.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    And it of course helps, if accurate, as it tells you exactly where to go, how many there are, etc. It’s basically cheating.