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> The comments that this rather expensive endeavour should just be about getting a head count are also amusing to me Countries conduct censuses so they can und

> The comments that this rather expensive endeavour should just be about getting a head count are also amusing to me Countries conduct censuses so they can understand, in great detail, what is going on with the people who make up the country. With this accurate information, improvement plans can be made, and life can be improved for everyone. The comments about just making it a head count give a very interesting window into the mentality of many these days. They don’t want to - it can’t fathom how to - make life better. It’s sad, really

fragmede 4mo ago
Or worse, they actively don't want to make life better for the "wrong" kind of people.
lazide 4mo ago
Eh, that’s the ‘if people do the right thing’ approach. Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc.
- heheheisis 4mo ago
  [dead]
- angry_octet 4mo ago
  "Many countries"? Do you have any evidence for this statement? I think that actually the US is an outlier.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    Here is a case study from Greece in the ‘20’s, but all you need to do is google ‘ethnic cleansing’ and dig in, and you’ll see government data sources (including census data) all played a part. [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589] “The census was conducted in a period of successive wars and rapid territorial expansion. We focus on the handling of the census data for Macedonia, a newly annexed territory that would soon become the site of the first instance of large-scale ethnic cleansing in modern Europe.”
    - mthoms 4mo ago
      In the original comment, you used the present tense. I think that's what was being questioned.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        As I said, look around. China has been (and still is) doing it today with Uighurs. It’s not a new behavior.
        mthoms 4mo ago
        Of course. But the specific claim you made was about many countries currently using census data to "round up and murder" some "specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc." I'm not arguing that you don't a valid point - broadly speaking. You do. But you made a very specific claim, and that was what was being questioned. That's all.
        lazide 4mo ago
        Reading is fundamental. I made no such claim. I said many were using it to target people (which they are), and some are even using it to murder people using that data. Which they are. Or do you think that is actually not happening right now?
        deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
        mthoms 4mo ago
        >Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc. You were asked to back up this claim but haven't cited an example of any country currently "using census data" to "round up and murder" people. Is China currently using census data to do horrible things? Are other countries? Maybe. I have no idea. I wouldn't be all that surprised TBH. You may be correct for all I know. But that's not the point... The point is that you made a very specific claim and you still haven't provided any specific examples or evidence.
  - dnautics 4mo ago
    really? bosnia 1990s, turkey early 1900s, pogroms all over europe in the 19th century, holodomor, china with tibet and uighurs, germany tabulating data on the jews with the help of ibm...
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    When Germany invaded the Netherlands they found it extremely convenient that the Netherlands had a nice centralised paper filing system telling them exactly where all the Jews lived. The Holocaust proceeded more efficiently in the Netherlands than it had in Germany.
    - katbyte 4mo ago
      Maybe an example that isn’t almost 100 years old ?
      - hackable_sand 4mo ago
        [flagged]
    - makeitdouble 4mo ago
      That papertrail mattered less than how you make it sound. France also sent people to the Germans during the occupation, and there was very little info needed. The gov wasn't caring much about due process or lengthy and accurate investigations anyway.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        These arguments are bizarre. Is it easier and more convenient to round up people when you have a literal list of people, along with the attributes that someone might want to round them up based on? Of course. Is it still possible to do it without said list? Yes, of course. It is just harder. And more likely some or many will be missed, if those attributes aren’t super obvious and impossible to change. So why make it easier?
        makeitdouble 4mo ago
        It is indeed a bizarre discussion: nazis round up people with or without these lists, anyone could point the finger at a neighbor and they'd be gone tomorrow. The question becomes if it mattered whether the people sent in were actually Jewish or depraved or whatever motive was invoked. To me it doesn't matter, it is was horrible either way.
  - wahnfrieden 4mo ago
    If someone says the holocaust happened, do you demand evidence of the claim? Because that’s exactly what you’ve done here
    - XorNot 4mo ago
      Can you give an example of an extermination program which was thwarted by a lack of accurate census data? "The Nazis used a data source to implement an extermination program" is not a statement which proves that your problem was the existence of a data source.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        [flagged]
      - notpushkin 4mo ago
        The claim was not that the census is instrumental to e.g. ethnic cleansing, simply that the (micro?)data can be used that way.
        lazide 4mo ago
        And it of course helps, if accurate, as it tells you exactly where to go, how many there are, etc. It’s basically cheating.
- testing22321 4mo ago
  Ah yes, the old “bad guys did it 50+ years ago, therefore we shouldn’t collect data that will improve our country” It’s no shock the standard of living continues to fall in what was once ostensibly the greatest country.
  - lazide 4mo ago
    ‘Gov’t consistently threatens to do x which is bad, does x which is bad. collecting data which makes it easier to do x is… good?’ Do you even listen to yourself? How would collecting that data in this environment actually improve the country, instead of clearly being used to do bad things - which will make the situation worse? Notably, this is the gun registry problem, and exactly why gun registries are also bad.
    - testing22321 4mo ago
      Sigh. There is only one OECD country where this conversation has any merit. Your gun registry example is great proof.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        Hardly. And talk about moving the goal posts. Everything I said can just as easily be said about Brazil.
pollorollo 4mo ago
Indeed, the very word "statistics" originates as an understanding or description of the state [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics#History

fragmede 4mo ago

Or worse, they actively don't want to make life better for the "wrong" kind of people.

lazide 4mo ago

Eh, that’s the ‘if people do the right thing’ approach. Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc.

heheheisis 4mo ago
[dead]
angry_octet 4mo ago
"Many countries"? Do you have any evidence for this statement? I think that actually the US is an outlier.
- lazide 4mo ago
  Here is a case study from Greece in the ‘20’s, but all you need to do is google ‘ethnic cleansing’ and dig in, and you’ll see government data sources (including census data) all played a part. [https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/11208589] “The census was conducted in a period of successive wars and rapid territorial expansion. We focus on the handling of the census data for Macedonia, a newly annexed territory that would soon become the site of the first instance of large-scale ethnic cleansing in modern Europe.”
  - mthoms 4mo ago
    In the original comment, you used the present tense. I think that's what was being questioned.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      As I said, look around. China has been (and still is) doing it today with Uighurs. It’s not a new behavior.
      - mthoms 4mo ago
        Of course. But the specific claim you made was about many countries currently using census data to "round up and murder" some "specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc." I'm not arguing that you don't a valid point - broadly speaking. You do. But you made a very specific claim, and that was what was being questioned. That's all.
        lazide 4mo ago
        Reading is fundamental. I made no such claim. I said many were using it to target people (which they are), and some are even using it to murder people using that data. Which they are. Or do you think that is actually not happening right now?
        deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
        mthoms 4mo ago
        >Many countries use census data to target (or even round up and murder) specific groups of people by religion, ethnicity, etc. You were asked to back up this claim but haven't cited an example of any country currently "using census data" to "round up and murder" people. Is China currently using census data to do horrible things? Are other countries? Maybe. I have no idea. I wouldn't be all that surprised TBH. You may be correct for all I know. But that's not the point... The point is that you made a very specific claim and you still haven't provided any specific examples or evidence.
- dnautics 4mo ago
  really? bosnia 1990s, turkey early 1900s, pogroms all over europe in the 19th century, holodomor, china with tibet and uighurs, germany tabulating data on the jews with the help of ibm...
- inigyou 4mo ago
  When Germany invaded the Netherlands they found it extremely convenient that the Netherlands had a nice centralised paper filing system telling them exactly where all the Jews lived. The Holocaust proceeded more efficiently in the Netherlands than it had in Germany.
  - katbyte 4mo ago
    Maybe an example that isn’t almost 100 years old ?
    - hackable_sand 4mo ago
      [flagged]
  - makeitdouble 4mo ago
    That papertrail mattered less than how you make it sound. France also sent people to the Germans during the occupation, and there was very little info needed. The gov wasn't caring much about due process or lengthy and accurate investigations anyway.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      These arguments are bizarre. Is it easier and more convenient to round up people when you have a literal list of people, along with the attributes that someone might want to round them up based on? Of course. Is it still possible to do it without said list? Yes, of course. It is just harder. And more likely some or many will be missed, if those attributes aren’t super obvious and impossible to change. So why make it easier?
      - makeitdouble 4mo ago
        It is indeed a bizarre discussion: nazis round up people with or without these lists, anyone could point the finger at a neighbor and they'd be gone tomorrow. The question becomes if it mattered whether the people sent in were actually Jewish or depraved or whatever motive was invoked. To me it doesn't matter, it is was horrible either way.
- wahnfrieden 4mo ago
  If someone says the holocaust happened, do you demand evidence of the claim? Because that’s exactly what you’ve done here
  - XorNot 4mo ago
    Can you give an example of an extermination program which was thwarted by a lack of accurate census data? "The Nazis used a data source to implement an extermination program" is not a statement which proves that your problem was the existence of a data source.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      [flagged]
    - notpushkin 4mo ago
      The claim was not that the census is instrumental to e.g. ethnic cleansing, simply that the (micro?)data can be used that way.
      - lazide 4mo ago
        And it of course helps, if accurate, as it tells you exactly where to go, how many there are, etc. It’s basically cheating.
testing22321 4mo ago
Ah yes, the old “bad guys did it 50+ years ago, therefore we shouldn’t collect data that will improve our country” It’s no shock the standard of living continues to fall in what was once ostensibly the greatest country.
- lazide 4mo ago
  ‘Gov’t consistently threatens to do x which is bad, does x which is bad. collecting data which makes it easier to do x is… good?’ Do you even listen to yourself? How would collecting that data in this environment actually improve the country, instead of clearly being used to do bad things - which will make the situation worse? Notably, this is the gun registry problem, and exactly why gun registries are also bad.
  - testing22321 4mo ago
    Sigh. There is only one OECD country where this conversation has any merit. Your gun registry example is great proof.
    - lazide 4mo ago
      Hardly. And talk about moving the goal posts. Everything I said can just as easily be said about Brazil.

pollorollo 4mo ago

Indeed, the very word "statistics" originates as an understanding or description of the state [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics#History