4 ms·

I'll direct you to the Nat Turner rebellion [1]. Or the practice of "necklacing" in apartheid South AFrica [2]. Or the Mau Mau rebellion [3]. As Nelson Mandela

by jmyeet 4mo ago

I'll direct you to the Nat Turner rebellion [1]. Or the practice of "necklacing" in apartheid South AFrica [2]. Or the Mau Mau rebellion [3]. As Nelson Mandela put it [4]: > A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire. History didn't begin on October 7. October 7 was the culmination of (then) 75 years of oppression, ethnic cleansing, colonial violence, collective punishment, starvation, the denial of clean water, the denial of electricity and other basics and making conditions generally unlivable. Israeli tactics included "mowing the grass" [5] and putting Palestinians "on a diet" [6][7]. Palestinians are often held without trial [8] and when there is a trial it's a sham in front of a military tribunal. And this doesn't even touch the constant settler violence in the West Bank. One reason we say the oppressor sets the level of violence is what happens with peaceful protests, such as the Great March of Return [9]. What happened? Israelis used them as target practice [10][11]. October 7 was violent, no question. but there were also a lot of lies about what happened [12][13][14]. And whatever you think about the tactics or outcomes of October 7, Israel has done an October 7 every day since October 7. One point: > the people in the ghetto were on the verge of being shipped off to concentration camps and being killed in gas chambers There's actually no evidence they knew that. The Nazis went to great lengths to deceive such populations that they were being resettled. and > they had been suffering from rampant disease and starvation before the fighting. Which is different, how? > ... proscribed terrorist groups ... That's how state violence works. It makes things illegal. There was a time when slavery was legal. Does that make opposing it wrong? Apartheid in South Africa was legal. Apartheid in Israel is "legal". [1]: https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/nat-turner-in-gaza/ https://www.normanfinkelstein.com/nat-turner-in-gaza/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing [3]: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/18/uncovering-truth-british-empire-caroline-elkins-mau-mau https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/aug/18/uncovering-trut... [4]: https://eamonka.com/2010/03/25/6-great-quotes-from-mandelas-long-walk-to-freedom/ https://eamonka.com/2010/03/25/6-great-quotes-from-mandelas-... [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass [6]: https://imeu.org/resources/resources/putting-palestinians-on-a-diet-israels-siege-blockade-of-gaza/223 https://imeu.org/resources/resources/putting-palestinians-on... [7]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/02/25/israel-denied-pasta-to-gaza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/02/25/israel-denied-pasta-to-... [8]: https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200910_without_trial https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200910_withou... [9]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-great-march-of-return/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2018/10/gaza-gre... [10]: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/ https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-inju... [11]: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-ma... [12]: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/nyt-screams/ https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/nyt-screams/ [13]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-... [14]: https://www.thepipd.com/content/blog/israeli-major-disinformation-and-lies-since-october-7/ https://www.thepipd.com/content/blog/israeli-major-disinform...

FunnyUsername 4mo ago
> October 7 was the culmination of (then) 75 years of [...] Nothing you might say after this can justify massacring, kidnapping or raping civilians. > the denial of clean water, the denial of electricity This is pretty unreasonable framing. Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind valuable modern infrastructure like desalination plants, and then provided free water and electricity even to an enemy who constantly attacked it. Hamas, on the other hand, proudly filmed themselves digging up pipes to turn into rockets for terrorizing Israel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y
- southsider99 4mo ago
  "For terrorizing Israel" is "pretty unreasonable framing".
  - FunnyUsername 4mo ago
    They're unguided rockets which can only vaguely target civilian population centers, not any military assets. That's quite literally terrorism.
graemep 4mo ago
None of that justifies rape and torture. None of it makes Gaza remotely similar to the Warsaw Ghetto. Why do you not apply the same logic to Israel? The occupied territories were occupied as part of a long running conflict with people who wanted to wipe out Israel. The problem with your argument is that you end up justifying pretty much everything that is part of any long running conflict or where there has been a history of oppression. If you apply the same standards evenly you will end up justifying almost all terrorists, many genocides, war crimes, etc. > There's actually no evidence they knew that. The Nazis went to great lengths to deceive such populations that they were being resettled. The uprising happened after they realised what was happening. There was no armed resistance until the realised: https://wwv.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/warsaw_ghetto_testimonies/resistance.asp https://wwv.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/warsaw_ghetto_te... > That's how state violence works. It makes things illegal. There was a time when slavery was legal. Does that make opposing it wrong? Apartheid in South Africa was legal. Apartheid in Israel is "legal". It is sometimes right to break the law. Your claim that the UK is "locking up grandmothers indefinitely for holding up signs" is verifiably false (you cite an article that says "12 hours", which is not indefinitely) and lacks context. The UK is not remotely like apartheid South Africa! Your claims that everyone is a Zionist plotter or Israeli agent are pure neo-fascist conspiracy theory. Its about as credible as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion unless you have actual evidence.

by jmyeet 4mo ago

FunnyUsername 4mo ago

> October 7 was the culmination of (then) 75 years of [...] Nothing you might say after this can justify massacring, kidnapping or raping civilians. > the denial of clean water, the denial of electricity This is pretty unreasonable framing. Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind valuable modern infrastructure like desalination plants, and then provided free water and electricity even to an enemy who constantly attacked it. Hamas, on the other hand, proudly filmed themselves digging up pipes to turn into rockets for terrorizing Israel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y

southsider99 4mo ago
"For terrorizing Israel" is "pretty unreasonable framing".
- FunnyUsername 4mo ago
  They're unguided rockets which can only vaguely target civilian population centers, not any military assets. That's quite literally terrorism.

graemep 4mo ago

None of that justifies rape and torture. None of it makes Gaza remotely similar to the Warsaw Ghetto. Why do you not apply the same logic to Israel? The occupied territories were occupied as part of a long running conflict with people who wanted to wipe out Israel. The problem with your argument is that you end up justifying pretty much everything that is part of any long running conflict or where there has been a history of oppression. If you apply the same standards evenly you will end up justifying almost all terrorists, many genocides, war crimes, etc. > There's actually no evidence they knew that. The Nazis went to great lengths to deceive such populations that they were being resettled. The uprising happened after they realised what was happening. There was no armed resistance until the realised: https://wwv.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/warsaw_ghetto_testimonies/resistance.asp https://wwv.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/warsaw_ghetto_te... > That's how state violence works. It makes things illegal. There was a time when slavery was legal. Does that make opposing it wrong? Apartheid in South Africa was legal. Apartheid in Israel is "legal". It is sometimes right to break the law. Your claim that the UK is "locking up grandmothers indefinitely for holding up signs" is verifiably false (you cite an article that says "12 hours", which is not indefinitely) and lacks context. The UK is not remotely like apartheid South Africa! Your claims that everyone is a Zionist plotter or Israeli agent are pure neo-fascist conspiracy theory. Its about as credible as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion unless you have actual evidence.