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> nor do I care to learn how to install a different window manager and thereby spend the time supporting it. Since you haven't used linux in 5 years I'll be th

> nor do I care to learn how to install a different window manager and thereby spend the time supporting it. Since you haven't used linux in 5 years I'll be the fanboy that points out Linux, and Ubuntu especially, has grown up a lot since then. How do you install an application? You open a package manager and hit the install button. Same thing with desktop environments. You want KDE? 'sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop'. Xfce is 'xubuntu-desktop'. Hell, even gnome classic can be installed this way with 'gnome-panel'. LightDM will automatically notice the new environment. All you have to do is log out, then choose the desktop environment you want and log back in. Window managers usually take a little more fiddling to install properly but I assume that's not what you meant since you referenced gnome.

llimllib 14y ago
I was an ion3 guy back in the day. Installing and configuring those window managers (which I loved!) is why I left linux... I don't want to spend my time futzing around with the computer instead of getting work done.
- brian_cloutier 14y ago
  That makes a lot more sense, as much as I love tiling window managers it's not especially fun to get that far off the beaten path, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.
  - rsync 14y ago
    ion3 is the high water mark for simplicity and actually getting things done. We are all poorer for Tuomo Valkonen no longer producing this.
    - moe 14y ago
      Yes, ion3 was by far the best tiling wm in its time, and probably still is (I haven't seen another wm implement the tabbed frames metaphor yet). I wish someone would port it to OSX (not X11). I'd pay serious money for a license and I imagine quite a few others would, too.
      - brian_cloutier 14y ago
        Unfortunately that's not the sort of thing osx is amenable to.
        moe 14y ago
        I think it might be doable, although it would take quite some skill and nasty hacks. The various half-assed "click-to-arrange" utilities (SizeUp et al) demonstrate that windows can be placed, sized, hidden and shown programmatically. Other utilities demonstrate that mouse-position, clicks etc. can be detected and intercepted, and that you can render raster-overlays on top of the desktop. Window drop shadows can be disabled, the window chrome probably can't - but I wouldn't mind that. An ion for OSX would probably have to draw its GUI (grid and tabs) as an overlay and then arrange the windows underneath. It would probably also have to intercept all mouse-actions and decide whether to pass them on. The devil will obviously be in the details, and there will be lots of them. But in principle it doesn't seem impossible to go from something like http://www.tylerwm.com http://www.tylerwm.com to something that actually works...
- anonymous 14y ago
  I am using ion3 right now. It's pretty cool. Feels a bit limited though, I'm thinking of maybe transitioning to something more ... awesome ;] .
astrodust 14y ago
Ubuntu has made remarkable strides, but overall usability is stuck somewhere between Windows 95 and Windows XP. On the whole that's not bad, but compared to systems with more refinement, which would include Windows 7 and OS X, it does look rather rickety. There's nothing technically in the way of Ubuntu being a first class operating system that way except for someone to spend a lot of time designing it from a holistic standpoint. The inconsistencies and lack of attention to detail are what separate the approximations of good UX to great UX. If you think `apt-get` is even remotely user friendly, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Ubuntu has an incredible collection of software and with the right interface it would be even easier to use than MacPorts, Homebrew, or any app store out there, but this is going to take time to make happen. Also be careful what you describe as "fiddling" because for most people that means "beat head against wall until bleeding, then throw computer out window".
- gizzlon 14y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "usability" .. For me, LInux/BSD is much more usable than Windows 7 & Mac OSX for some tasks. Windows wins some as well. I cant think of, at the top of my head, anything OSX does best usability wise for me. But it's also the OS i use the least.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    It combines a first-class graphical user environment with a fully UNIX-compliant command-line environment. For a web developer it really is as good as it gets. You get to run your text, image, audio or video editor in the graphical environment and the same server applications as you'd use on your production server. With Linux you'll have to make compromises on the desktop side, as there's a smaller choice of first-class applications, and on Windows your server selection is extremely limited in comparison. Linux has an amazing command-line infrastructure, though only slightly better than OS X, and mostly this is just to do with having better package managers. Windows has an amazing desktop environment, very responsive (on the right hardware) and with deep application support for high-performance 3D. Linux is making strides here, and OS X is often close but limited by the capabilities of OpenGL and the slightly less refined drivers.

llimllib 14y ago

I was an ion3 guy back in the day. Installing and configuring those window managers (which I loved!) is why I left linux... I don't want to spend my time futzing around with the computer instead of getting work done.

brian_cloutier 14y ago
That makes a lot more sense, as much as I love tiling window managers it's not especially fun to get that far off the beaten path, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.
- rsync 14y ago
  ion3 is the high water mark for simplicity and actually getting things done. We are all poorer for Tuomo Valkonen no longer producing this.
  - moe 14y ago
    Yes, ion3 was by far the best tiling wm in its time, and probably still is (I haven't seen another wm implement the tabbed frames metaphor yet). I wish someone would port it to OSX (not X11). I'd pay serious money for a license and I imagine quite a few others would, too.
    - brian_cloutier 14y ago
      Unfortunately that's not the sort of thing osx is amenable to.
      - moe 14y ago
        I think it might be doable, although it would take quite some skill and nasty hacks. The various half-assed "click-to-arrange" utilities (SizeUp et al) demonstrate that windows can be placed, sized, hidden and shown programmatically. Other utilities demonstrate that mouse-position, clicks etc. can be detected and intercepted, and that you can render raster-overlays on top of the desktop. Window drop shadows can be disabled, the window chrome probably can't - but I wouldn't mind that. An ion for OSX would probably have to draw its GUI (grid and tabs) as an overlay and then arrange the windows underneath. It would probably also have to intercept all mouse-actions and decide whether to pass them on. The devil will obviously be in the details, and there will be lots of them. But in principle it doesn't seem impossible to go from something like http://www.tylerwm.com http://www.tylerwm.com to something that actually works...
anonymous 14y ago
I am using ion3 right now. It's pretty cool. Feels a bit limited though, I'm thinking of maybe transitioning to something more ... awesome ;] .

astrodust 14y ago

Ubuntu has made remarkable strides, but overall usability is stuck somewhere between Windows 95 and Windows XP. On the whole that's not bad, but compared to systems with more refinement, which would include Windows 7 and OS X, it does look rather rickety. There's nothing technically in the way of Ubuntu being a first class operating system that way except for someone to spend a lot of time designing it from a holistic standpoint. The inconsistencies and lack of attention to detail are what separate the approximations of good UX to great UX. If you think `apt-get` is even remotely user friendly, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Ubuntu has an incredible collection of software and with the right interface it would be even easier to use than MacPorts, Homebrew, or any app store out there, but this is going to take time to make happen. Also be careful what you describe as "fiddling" because for most people that means "beat head against wall until bleeding, then throw computer out window".

gizzlon 14y ago
Depends on what you mean by "usability" .. For me, LInux/BSD is much more usable than Windows 7 & Mac OSX for some tasks. Windows wins some as well. I cant think of, at the top of my head, anything OSX does best usability wise for me. But it's also the OS i use the least.
- astrodust 14y ago
  It combines a first-class graphical user environment with a fully UNIX-compliant command-line environment. For a web developer it really is as good as it gets. You get to run your text, image, audio or video editor in the graphical environment and the same server applications as you'd use on your production server. With Linux you'll have to make compromises on the desktop side, as there's a smaller choice of first-class applications, and on Windows your server selection is extremely limited in comparison. Linux has an amazing command-line infrastructure, though only slightly better than OS X, and mostly this is just to do with having better package managers. Windows has an amazing desktop environment, very responsive (on the right hardware) and with deep application support for high-performance 3D. Linux is making strides here, and OS X is often close but limited by the capabilities of OpenGL and the slightly less refined drivers.