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Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants. South Africa b

by greggoB 4mo ago

Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants. South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. I don't think these two things are specifically related.

engineer_22 4mo ago
> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of My friends in Europe describe the situation differently
- greggoB 4mo ago
  Where would they be located?
lmm 4mo ago
> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of Then you haven't been paying attention. > South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. Arguably a legacy of the time when it did.
- greggoB 4mo ago
  > Then you haven't been paying attention. I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. > Arguably a legacy of the time when it did. I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be?
  - lmm 4mo ago
    > I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration (not to mention not even having open borders in the sense usually meant by "Europe has open borders", other than between a pair of neighbouring countries with very strong cultural ties), if that's where you mean by "here" you may have been insulated from it. Where I was, while it didn't spill out into rioting (mostly) there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU, and another with the 2015 migrant crisis (which ultimately lead to many of those open borders being closed, temporarily or "temporarily"). > I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be? Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border.
    - greggoB 4mo ago
      > The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. > if that's where you mean by "here" It's not, I live in Switzerland, which has one of the highest rates of migration in the EU > there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. Regardless, even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia > Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border. Omegalol - you might want to look up what modern day xenophobia in SA looks like (as well as the current socioeconomic situation) so you can see why that probably wasn't a concern pre-20th century
      - lmm 4mo ago
        > Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. We know exactly what caused this outbreak of xenophobic violence, it's in direct response to a dramatically brutal attempted murder by an immigrant caught on video (one who had been granted a refugee visa, on legitimate grounds or otherwise). That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. > I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. > even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes.
        greggoB 4mo ago
        > That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. If you follow this thread from the top, you'll see I didn't make the claim that open borders make things better; rather, the burden is for the opposing side to show that they make things worse. I would argue this hasn't been accomplished. > A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. Ah, you meant specifically in the UK (I thought across Europe in general, upon their entry). In that case, whether British people were already somewhat racist towards Eastern Europeans or became so as a result of freedom of movement sort of depends on who you ask. I suspect it was the former. And ofc now the UK is mourning the loss of said (white) Eastern Europeans as it's having to bring in an increased number of people from (non-white) Africa and India as a result of Brexit, especially in the care industry. For sure nothing will go wrong from here. > At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes. From my observation, the real underlying problems are economics and integration - when you have a ridiculously high unemployment rate (think 30%+) like in South Africa, the black South Africans direct that towards the the other Africans. When people from other cultures aren't integrated properly (think the UK, France, as opposed to Switzerland, Denmark maybe), you can get the same (i.e. what's happening in Belfast now).
snowpid 4mo ago
"Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants." My guess you are naive but intra European racism was always a thing (easy example was Hitler). The EU tries to combat it and reduced definitely thanks to Erasmus, better weath of East Europe, well open borders but oh boy it still exists.
- greggoB 4mo ago
  So taking your premise on face value, how has open borders specifically augmented/facilitated this racism exactly?
  - mothballed 4mo ago
    Not sure about them, but having lived or spent time in a many other cultures and countries, I found that I'd often start off with a cheery or neutral view of them but then when I get to know them and actually live with them there were points of cultural contention that were a lot less tolerable up close than at an easy distance where they were not my concern and that can often show up as projected as "racism." This doesn't mean they do things the wrong thing, it's just annoying to have to pick up a bunch of new and often incompatible new cultural systems to accommodate immigrants. If you're going to them, that's one thing and comes with the territory; but when they're coming to you and maybe you're already exhausted with johnny keeping you up all night and working enough hour to pay rent that extra effort to accommodate 10 extra different cultures 9 of whom might be unhappy if you treat them all the exact same could obviously be exhausting. Then you start thinking maybe your mental or even physical burden could be lessened if you just had to deal with one cultural system or at least the previous number of ones you had to deal with. You start thinking maybe something like 1000 new Afghans would be a bit harder to deal with for you than 1000 new Frenchman. I don't think there's much stronger way of bringing about racism than actually getting to know and see other cultures, at a distance you can gloss over about anything as "we're all equal humans who should sing koombaya" but the rubber meets the road when your kid is trying to sleep for school and the local arabs have set up blaring calls to prayer at 2am.

by greggoB 4mo ago

engineer_22 4mo ago

> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of My friends in Europe describe the situation differently

greggoB 4mo ago
Where would they be located?

lmm 4mo ago

> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of Then you haven't been paying attention. > South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. Arguably a legacy of the time when it did.

greggoB 4mo ago
> Then you haven't been paying attention. I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. > Arguably a legacy of the time when it did. I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be?
- lmm 4mo ago
  > I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration (not to mention not even having open borders in the sense usually meant by "Europe has open borders", other than between a pair of neighbouring countries with very strong cultural ties), if that's where you mean by "here" you may have been insulated from it. Where I was, while it didn't spill out into rioting (mostly) there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU, and another with the 2015 migrant crisis (which ultimately lead to many of those open borders being closed, temporarily or "temporarily"). > I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be? Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border.
  - greggoB 4mo ago
    > The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. > if that's where you mean by "here" It's not, I live in Switzerland, which has one of the highest rates of migration in the EU > there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. Regardless, even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia > Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border. Omegalol - you might want to look up what modern day xenophobia in SA looks like (as well as the current socioeconomic situation) so you can see why that probably wasn't a concern pre-20th century
    - lmm 4mo ago
      > Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. We know exactly what caused this outbreak of xenophobic violence, it's in direct response to a dramatically brutal attempted murder by an immigrant caught on video (one who had been granted a refugee visa, on legitimate grounds or otherwise). That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. > I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. > even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes.
      - greggoB 4mo ago
        > That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. If you follow this thread from the top, you'll see I didn't make the claim that open borders make things better; rather, the burden is for the opposing side to show that they make things worse. I would argue this hasn't been accomplished. > A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. Ah, you meant specifically in the UK (I thought across Europe in general, upon their entry). In that case, whether British people were already somewhat racist towards Eastern Europeans or became so as a result of freedom of movement sort of depends on who you ask. I suspect it was the former. And ofc now the UK is mourning the loss of said (white) Eastern Europeans as it's having to bring in an increased number of people from (non-white) Africa and India as a result of Brexit, especially in the care industry. For sure nothing will go wrong from here. > At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes. From my observation, the real underlying problems are economics and integration - when you have a ridiculously high unemployment rate (think 30%+) like in South Africa, the black South Africans direct that towards the the other Africans. When people from other cultures aren't integrated properly (think the UK, France, as opposed to Switzerland, Denmark maybe), you can get the same (i.e. what's happening in Belfast now).

snowpid 4mo ago

"Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants." My guess you are naive but intra European racism was always a thing (easy example was Hitler). The EU tries to combat it and reduced definitely thanks to Erasmus, better weath of East Europe, well open borders but oh boy it still exists.

greggoB 4mo ago
So taking your premise on face value, how has open borders specifically augmented/facilitated this racism exactly?
- mothballed 4mo ago
  Not sure about them, but having lived or spent time in a many other cultures and countries, I found that I'd often start off with a cheery or neutral view of them but then when I get to know them and actually live with them there were points of cultural contention that were a lot less tolerable up close than at an easy distance where they were not my concern and that can often show up as projected as "racism." This doesn't mean they do things the wrong thing, it's just annoying to have to pick up a bunch of new and often incompatible new cultural systems to accommodate immigrants. If you're going to them, that's one thing and comes with the territory; but when they're coming to you and maybe you're already exhausted with johnny keeping you up all night and working enough hour to pay rent that extra effort to accommodate 10 extra different cultures 9 of whom might be unhappy if you treat them all the exact same could obviously be exhausting. Then you start thinking maybe your mental or even physical burden could be lessened if you just had to deal with one cultural system or at least the previous number of ones you had to deal with. You start thinking maybe something like 1000 new Afghans would be a bit harder to deal with for you than 1000 new Frenchman. I don't think there's much stronger way of bringing about racism than actually getting to know and see other cultures, at a distance you can gloss over about anything as "we're all equal humans who should sing koombaya" but the rubber meets the road when your kid is trying to sleep for school and the local arabs have set up blaring calls to prayer at 2am.