4 ms·

Believe me an open border would do nothing but increase xenophobia. Canada is dealing with its own immigration crisis with a ton of newcomers DDoSing the overex

Believe me an open border would do nothing but increase xenophobia. Canada is dealing with its own immigration crisis with a ton of newcomers DDoSing the overextended healthcare system and real estate market.

greggoB 4mo ago
Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants. South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. I don't think these two things are specifically related.
- engineer_22 4mo ago
  > hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of My friends in Europe describe the situation differently
  - greggoB 4mo ago
    Where would they be located?
- lmm 4mo ago
  > hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of Then you haven't been paying attention. > South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. Arguably a legacy of the time when it did.
  - greggoB 4mo ago
    > Then you haven't been paying attention. I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. > Arguably a legacy of the time when it did. I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be?
    - lmm 4mo ago
      > I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration (not to mention not even having open borders in the sense usually meant by "Europe has open borders", other than between a pair of neighbouring countries with very strong cultural ties), if that's where you mean by "here" you may have been insulated from it. Where I was, while it didn't spill out into rioting (mostly) there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU, and another with the 2015 migrant crisis (which ultimately lead to many of those open borders being closed, temporarily or "temporarily"). > I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be? Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border.
      - greggoB 4mo ago
        > The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. > if that's where you mean by "here" It's not, I live in Switzerland, which has one of the highest rates of migration in the EU > there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. Regardless, even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia > Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border. Omegalol - you might want to look up what modern day xenophobia in SA looks like (as well as the current socioeconomic situation) so you can see why that probably wasn't a concern pre-20th century
        lmm 4mo ago
        > Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. We know exactly what caused this outbreak of xenophobic violence, it's in direct response to a dramatically brutal attempted murder by an immigrant caught on video (one who had been granted a refugee visa, on legitimate grounds or otherwise). That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. > I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. > even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes.
- snowpid 4mo ago
  "Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants." My guess you are naive but intra European racism was always a thing (easy example was Hitler). The EU tries to combat it and reduced definitely thanks to Erasmus, better weath of East Europe, well open borders but oh boy it still exists.
  - greggoB 4mo ago
    So taking your premise on face value, how has open borders specifically augmented/facilitated this racism exactly?
    - mothballed 4mo ago
      Not sure about them, but having lived or spent time in a many other cultures and countries, I found that I'd often start off with a cheery or neutral view of them but then when I get to know them and actually live with them there were points of cultural contention that were a lot less tolerable up close than at an easy distance where they were not my concern and that can often show up as projected as "racism." This doesn't mean they do things the wrong thing, it's just annoying to have to pick up a bunch of new and often incompatible new cultural systems to accommodate immigrants. If you're going to them, that's one thing and comes with the territory; but when they're coming to you and maybe you're already exhausted with johnny keeping you up all night and working enough hour to pay rent that extra effort to accommodate 10 extra different cultures 9 of whom might be unhappy if you treat them all the exact same could obviously be exhausting. Then you start thinking maybe your mental or even physical burden could be lessened if you just had to deal with one cultural system or at least the previous number of ones you had to deal with. You start thinking maybe something like 1000 new Afghans would be a bit harder to deal with for you than 1000 new Frenchman. I don't think there's much stronger way of bringing about racism than actually getting to know and see other cultures, at a distance you can gloss over about anything as "we're all equal humans who should sing koombaya" but the rubber meets the road when your kid is trying to sleep for school and the local arabs have set up blaring calls to prayer at 2am.
totony 4mo ago
Canada DoS'd its own healthcare. I'm mostly familiar with Quebec but the overextended healthcare system is mainly our own doing, so is housing shortage.
- stuxnet79 4mo ago
  Well the structural issues have been present for some time but the influx of newcomers during COVID did not help the situation. Not saying it is right, but these newcomers have become a scapegoat and it's stoked the flames of xenophobia which was previously never an issue in this country. Also QC for all it's local issues has largely been insulated from "over-immigration" due to the language requirements. If your only experience is there you may not be aware of the scale of the problem.
  - totony 4mo ago
    It has not been insulated at all, there are tons of federal immigration pathways made easier for french speaking immigrants. According to this https://www.statista.com/statistics/444906/number-of-immigrants-in-canada/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/444906/number-of-immigra..., Ontario does seem over-represented. I'm not saying over-immigration has no downsides, clearly it did not help our overstrained system, but to say it caused it is to willfully blind ourselves to the structural issues that lead to these issues in the first place. i.e. they will never be fixed
BobaFloutist 4mo ago
I don't understand, why have some of the newcomers become builders and doctors?
- stuxnet79 4mo ago
  There are multiple reasons. (1) Canada over-indexed on low skill immigration. High skill white collar professionals either directly immigrate to the US, immigrate to Canada with the intent to move to the US eventually or they stay in their own countries because COL in Canada's major economic centres is astronomical. (2) Supply of doctors is artificially constrained by the governing bodies. It is much more difficult to become a physician in Canada vs the US. Salaries are also substantially lower. No surprise that the ratio of available doctors to patients is concerning. The housing crisis in Canada is a complicated topic and I'm not informed enough to offer a summary of what led us to this mess. But this Wikipedia article [1] provides a good overview. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_property_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_property_bubble
- nubinetwork 4mo ago
  Historically, the doctors come here for training, and leave for the US, where the pay is better.

greggoB 4mo ago

Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants. South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. I don't think these two things are specifically related.

engineer_22 4mo ago
> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of My friends in Europe describe the situation differently
- greggoB 4mo ago
  Where would they be located?
lmm 4mo ago
> hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of Then you haven't been paying attention. > South Africa by contrast does not have open borders, and is currently going through another bout of violent xenophobia. Arguably a legacy of the time when it did.
- greggoB 4mo ago
  > Then you haven't been paying attention. I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. > Arguably a legacy of the time when it did. I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be?
  - lmm 4mo ago
    > I live here, I think I'd notice if events like the current Belfast riots happened on a more regular basis. The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration (not to mention not even having open borders in the sense usually meant by "Europe has open borders", other than between a pair of neighbouring countries with very strong cultural ties), if that's where you mean by "here" you may have been insulated from it. Where I was, while it didn't spill out into rioting (mostly) there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU, and another with the 2015 migrant crisis (which ultimately lead to many of those open borders being closed, temporarily or "temporarily"). > I'm from there, so I'd be interested to know what time period that would be? Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border.
    - greggoB 4mo ago
      > The island of Ireland has had pretty low immigration Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. > if that's where you mean by "here" It's not, I live in Switzerland, which has one of the highest rates of migration in the EU > there was a palpable uptick in xenophobia when Romania and Bulgaria were admitted into the EU I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. Regardless, even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia > Pre-1902; one could haggle over the exact date depending on what one considers an open border. Omegalol - you might want to look up what modern day xenophobia in SA looks like (as well as the current socioeconomic situation) so you can see why that probably wasn't a concern pre-20th century
      - lmm 4mo ago
        > Seems like you just validated my point - a place without open borders is where a major outbreak of xenophobic violence is occurring, as opposed to mainland Europe. We know exactly what caused this outbreak of xenophobic violence, it's in direct response to a dramatically brutal attempted murder by an immigrant caught on video (one who had been granted a refugee visa, on legitimate grounds or otherwise). That's hardly an argument for open borders - if anything it's an argument for stricter screening of asylum seekers. > I'd be curious to know what this looked like at the time. A shift in sentiment, certain kinds of comments being heard more and more, ultimately Brexit. > even if we accept it as an example, that doesn't set the rule or show a general causation between open borders and xenophobia At a certain point you experience enough correlations that you have to trust the evidence of your own eyes.
snowpid 4mo ago
"Europe has open borders and this hasn't facilitated any increase in xenophobia that I'm aware of, despite many countries having many immigrants." My guess you are naive but intra European racism was always a thing (easy example was Hitler). The EU tries to combat it and reduced definitely thanks to Erasmus, better weath of East Europe, well open borders but oh boy it still exists.
- greggoB 4mo ago
  So taking your premise on face value, how has open borders specifically augmented/facilitated this racism exactly?
  - mothballed 4mo ago
    Not sure about them, but having lived or spent time in a many other cultures and countries, I found that I'd often start off with a cheery or neutral view of them but then when I get to know them and actually live with them there were points of cultural contention that were a lot less tolerable up close than at an easy distance where they were not my concern and that can often show up as projected as "racism." This doesn't mean they do things the wrong thing, it's just annoying to have to pick up a bunch of new and often incompatible new cultural systems to accommodate immigrants. If you're going to them, that's one thing and comes with the territory; but when they're coming to you and maybe you're already exhausted with johnny keeping you up all night and working enough hour to pay rent that extra effort to accommodate 10 extra different cultures 9 of whom might be unhappy if you treat them all the exact same could obviously be exhausting. Then you start thinking maybe your mental or even physical burden could be lessened if you just had to deal with one cultural system or at least the previous number of ones you had to deal with. You start thinking maybe something like 1000 new Afghans would be a bit harder to deal with for you than 1000 new Frenchman. I don't think there's much stronger way of bringing about racism than actually getting to know and see other cultures, at a distance you can gloss over about anything as "we're all equal humans who should sing koombaya" but the rubber meets the road when your kid is trying to sleep for school and the local arabs have set up blaring calls to prayer at 2am.

totony 4mo ago

Canada DoS'd its own healthcare. I'm mostly familiar with Quebec but the overextended healthcare system is mainly our own doing, so is housing shortage.

stuxnet79 4mo ago
Well the structural issues have been present for some time but the influx of newcomers during COVID did not help the situation. Not saying it is right, but these newcomers have become a scapegoat and it's stoked the flames of xenophobia which was previously never an issue in this country. Also QC for all it's local issues has largely been insulated from "over-immigration" due to the language requirements. If your only experience is there you may not be aware of the scale of the problem.
- totony 4mo ago
  It has not been insulated at all, there are tons of federal immigration pathways made easier for french speaking immigrants. According to this https://www.statista.com/statistics/444906/number-of-immigrants-in-canada/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/444906/number-of-immigra..., Ontario does seem over-represented. I'm not saying over-immigration has no downsides, clearly it did not help our overstrained system, but to say it caused it is to willfully blind ourselves to the structural issues that lead to these issues in the first place. i.e. they will never be fixed

BobaFloutist 4mo ago

I don't understand, why have some of the newcomers become builders and doctors?

stuxnet79 4mo ago
There are multiple reasons. (1) Canada over-indexed on low skill immigration. High skill white collar professionals either directly immigrate to the US, immigrate to Canada with the intent to move to the US eventually or they stay in their own countries because COL in Canada's major economic centres is astronomical. (2) Supply of doctors is artificially constrained by the governing bodies. It is much more difficult to become a physician in Canada vs the US. Salaries are also substantially lower. No surprise that the ratio of available doctors to patients is concerning. The housing crisis in Canada is a complicated topic and I'm not informed enough to offer a summary of what led us to this mess. But this Wikipedia article [1] provides a good overview. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_property_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_property_bubble
nubinetwork 4mo ago
Historically, the doctors come here for training, and leave for the US, where the pay is better.