6 ms·

As an American, I'm going to be really sad when we miss this transition. Maybe there's still time?

by gcanyon 4mo ago

Grombobulous 4mo ago
It will happen. My guess is that Canada is BYD’s pilot into the US. They have very similar buyer characteristics and the Canadian tariff deal allows them to enter the market without taking the risks of local factories. It won’t take much to get BYD access to the US. It’s a two-step process: - Toss a million bucks at Trump or wait for a Democratic administration - Build a plant in Alabama/Tennessee/South Carolina/Georgia That’s literally all it takes.
- galangalalgol 4mo ago
  A million? 100M only gets you an ev advertisement on the Whitehouse lawn. It will need to be something more like Saudi Arabia's investment in ivanka, i mean the affinity group. 25M a year to his son in law gets your phone calls answered when you feel like Iran is acting up too much. I am not as optimistic. If that doesn't happen the only candidate likely to let china do as they wilt is aoc. Vance would happily start ww3 with them. Rubio/newsome/shapiro etc will all keep the full pressure of all allies in them, potentially kicking them out of places they already sell.
  - gpm 4mo ago
    > Rubio/newsome/shapiro etc will all keep the full pressure of all allies in them, potentially kicking them out of places they already sell. I sincerely doubt the US is capable of this. Trump has lit your soft power on fire. Trying to get people to give up a superior and cheaper product is an extremely large ask.
    - bluGill 4mo ago
      The leaders there know that China isn't exactly a friend of liberal western democracy. They have won the current round of propoganda, but that doesn't mean they are anyone's friend either.
      - mjmsmith 4mo ago
        Still, if you're going to buy a car from an enemy of liberal western democracy, you might as well buy BYD over Tesla.
      - gpm 4mo ago
        > They have won the current round of propoganda No, they have won the current round of foreign relations. Threats to invade numerous allies. Blatant war crimes like murdering random people on boats. Violating established and signed trade deals left right and centre. Openly soliciting and accepting bribes. Kidnapping foreign countries citizens and holding them in inhumane camps. None of this is a matter of "propaganda" - it's a matter of actual actions the US is taking. > The leaders there know that China isn't exactly a friend of liberal western democracy. Indeed, but this has never been a prerequisite for trade with liberal western democracies. See for example the gulf monarchies we trade with. It is pretty much a prerequisite for extraordinary actions like successfully asking liberal western democracies to restrict trade though, and the US no longer meets it...
        bluGill 4mo ago
        > They have won the current round of foreign relations. Which is to say Trump failed at the current round of propaganda. If he had won this round you would excuse all those things. Being a friend of liberal western democracies is not a requirement for trade. However it does influence how trade happens. >restrict trade though, and the US no longer meets it... Again, the US lost the current round of propaganda.
        gpm 4mo ago
        > Which is to say Trump failed at the current round of propaganda. No, it really isn't. "Propaganda" merely refers to communication intended to influence. Trump failed when it came down to actual actions, not just communication. And when he failed in communication it was actual diplomacy meant to come to agreements, not merely the words meant to influence minds. Propaganda is the least of the USes problems right now.
    - galangalalgol 4mo ago
      It is less about the us being capable of it, than the us getting out of the way. Japan, India, and SK all have vested interests in preventing further concentration of Chinese mercantilist power. Saying an establishment us president would focus the fury and might of allies is a bit outdated I agree. SK survived a coup, Piland is working on it. Hungary might even pull it off. Maybe the us will right the ship as well vs overcorrect into a different sort of populist autocrat. But even then as you say; That soft power went up in flames.
    - arjie 4mo ago
      The soft power that people talk about yielded instantly when used. Trump’s foreign policy has been fairly scatter shot and foolish but it has only revealed that soft power is only soft. When you attempt to exercise it you find nothing there. The other world powers are exercising their will directly through power as power: no amount of Hollywood or America Is The Good Guy belief ever bought America a trade deal or sanction power. The only power that America has is her Navy and the nuclear weapons under the seas. Power that cannot be summoned is not power. The illusion that it is suited American allies and her wider array of beneficiaries because it allowed them to call upon the world hegemon for aid. But America is not that sole superpower anymore so it is useful to her to know the illusion for what it is: an illusion.
      - gpm 4mo ago
        Yeah... that's just not the case. The US routinely successfully exercised its soft power prior to Trump 2.0. For example it's why this news article even exists - the US (under Biden) exercised its soft power to get Canada to effectively ban Chinese EVs - otherwise they would already be here.
        arjie 4mo ago
        The news article is the news article but the reality is Canada operated under the threat of tariffs and now they have unconditional tariffs. Threatening someone with something lets you extract concessions. Using the threat removes the ability and makes it just math. China’s tariffs are more damaging than the US’s and are releasable so Canada makes deals with them. It’s more a story of hard power than soft power since economic damage ultimately led the way.
- pjc50 4mo ago
  I suspect America will continue to be weird about China until one of three things happens: - a new Great Power enemy is selected; it would make sense for this to be Russia, but India is also a candidate - some sort of face-saving moral victory is achieved which allows the US to continue feeling superior and not threatened by China's capability (unclear what this might look like) - Xi dies and his replacement launches a relationship reset
  - red-iron-pine 4mo ago
    none of those points matter so long as Taiwan is a discussion point
  - eunos 4mo ago
    > Xi dies and his replacement launches a relationship reset Among all Chinese leaders from the past and likely to the near future, Xi Jinping is the warmest towards US. He cherished his short stay in Iowa and his daughter graduated from Harvard. I dont think future leaders will share that feeling.
- eunos 4mo ago
  Nope the congressfolks from Ohio and Michigan would never allows that
  - Grombobulous 4mo ago
    I think they might. Look who owns the Lordstown assembly plant. Honda has been the central Ohio automotive industry for decades.
    - eunos 4mo ago
      I think Senator Slotkin singular goal in her senate life is to prevent Chinese cars from crossing from Canada
- wombat-man 4mo ago
  Idk we have a lot of protectionism around vehicle sales in the US already. I don't think it'll be easy but it could happen.
infecto 4mo ago
It will absolutely happen. BYD is already in Mexico and the door has been opened in Canada.
z2 4mo ago
I see parallels with the failed metric system transition: a voluntary shift with inconsistent policy, the impression that it's all just an elitist/foreign conspiracy, cultural/political resistance, and so on. Of the major developed economies, only Japan is lower on BEV market share. Realistically the transition will probably happen in pockets, for instance California has similar EV sales share as Germany right now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country
coldpie 4mo ago
> Maybe there's still time? I don't know that there is. It takes ages to develop an EV-focused platform, and the lines to manufacture it. Tesla is the only American manufacturer that has already done that work, and they're circling the drain. Aside from them, there's exactly one decent US-owned EV on the market, the Chevrolet Bolt. All of the top-of-the-line EVs are Korean or Chinese, and the 2nd tiers are all European. America's EVs aren't even on the horizon, they'll be playing catchup for decades.
- bluGill 4mo ago
  > there's exactly one decent US-owned EV on the market, the Chevrolet Bolt. I drive a Chevrolet Blazer EV. Test drove a Equinox EV as well. There is the silverado EV as well. Chrysler and Ford are mostly working on plug in hybrids which is 90% of the advantages of an EV for those who charge at home (if people will is debated). Which is to say the big-3 car makers all have EV or close enough EV cars and are making more.
  - cogman10 4mo ago
    A major problem is that dealers hate carrying and selling EVs. If you want to get these vehicles you either have to special order them or you have to buy used. I think a big portion of why Tesla is so prominent is because it's relatively easy to get a Tesla almost anywhere. *edit* I'm out of date. It looks like the dealers around me are all stocking EVs now.
    - pjc50 4mo ago
      I wonder how US-specific this phenomenon is. UK dealerships don't seem to have a problem stocking them, and have been quick to pick up BYD franchises.
      - kevin_thibedeau 4mo ago
        The US specific part is that a decent portion of the population makes, at least occasionally, longer trips outside of urban centers where more limited range, longer charging stops, and the need to carefully plan routes to hit chargers (that are hopefully functioning) make ICE derived power more attractive.
bluGill 4mo ago
While America is slow, the transition is happening. There are a fair number of electric cars on the road. Some like the cybertruck are obvious, but there are a lot of cars that come in ICE or EV variants that you can't tell and people are talking. Don't lose hope.
afavour 4mo ago
It’ll happen eventually, it’s an economic certainty. And when it finally does it probably won’t be that bad for the American consumer buying a car. The real loss is the international trade and the effect that’ll have on the overall economy. Mexico and Canada will already be dominated by Chinese cars and it’ll be too late to compete.
Zambyte 4mo ago
Fellow American here, I hope we do. Not because electric cars are any worse than combustion cars - they are better. But they're still cars. Electrifying them is a bandaid on the gaping wound that is our transportation infrastructure. Ideally missing out on the electrification of cars dethrones the car as the only way most people get around.
- no-name-here 4mo ago
  I’m pro public transportation, but if EVs are held back in the U.S., does it seem more likely that will cause public transportation to sprout up, or that people will just continue relying on ICE? The best thing for the environment seems to be to do everything to get off ICE, including both EVs and public transport.
  - Zambyte 4mo ago
    Falling behind on electric cars will probably not cause other options to thrive, but ideally it is a symptom of other options thriving. Also to be clear, I have been saying "electric cars" instead of EVs because I do see EVs as a large part of the solution. Lots of areas that would not be realistically covered by public transit could close the gaps with personal electric vehicles, like e-(cargo)bikes, e-trikes, and e-scooters (along with their acoustic counterparts for those who prefer, of course). The main problem with this being a solution right now is that for most of America, the infrastructure for these looks like a helmet and thoughts and prayers. Fixing America's transportation infrastructure includes trains, and roads to ride personal vehicles everywhere. If the Netherlands can do it, the richest nation in the world can do it.
Yizahi 4mo ago
As a European, US will probably overtake Europe on EVs soon and fast. You have two unique differences to many other countries - a lot of population lives in private houses or condos, where they can just plug in EV in a regular socket without much changes. And US has a sprawling net of private solar installations which will stimulate EVs even more as soon as people will wake up to bills they incur. And lastly US has a proper non-broken and user friendly net of charging stations, courtesy of one rocketman. Europe on the other hand had a big headstart and squandered it (and no, Norway doesn't count, Norway's experience can't and won't be transferred to other countries). I've spent almost a year looking at the new apartment complexes in a 1 mil city at different price tiers and levels of completion. Almost no charging spots in any of them, or maybe 1-2 spots per 200 apartment building AND they are priced even higher than high cost basic concrete parking place. Public charging stations are very limited in numbers, often closed or out of service. Interop is crap, I've used a corporate EV Astra while on a business trip and the card didn't work anywhere outside of the office parking lot, which by the way is a parking for a 5 storied business center occupied by IT companies and it has exactly 1 (one) moderately crappy charging pole with 1 (one) port. I had to drive to a Ford dealership in my Opel EV and a very pleasant gentleman had to swipe his card to start charging. Oh, and no charging poles had any display or app options, it literally had red, yellow or green led light and that's all we got. And it took me 1.5 hours to top up barely 100 km of range. Now that is an expensive 45k euro EV made no earlier than 2023 with minimal wear and mileage. In short - Europe "rode" on a wave of rich individuals buying their fun cars and able to afford all externalities for them. This population is running out or leveling. And Europe (both collectively and per-country basis) did barely anything to prepare other people, without fun car money or private houses for EV transition. For example, in my freshly constructed building there are 180 apartments and zero EV chargers. Would any of us buy EV any time soon? Especially since just the car itself usually cost more than similar ICE and there are no subsidies? Doubt it. And it is starting to show, when wildly optimistic EV transition targets are starting being pushed in the future.
- pixelatedindex 4mo ago
  > I've spent almost a year looking at the new apartment complexes in a 1 mil city at different price tiers and levels of completion. Almost no charging spots in any of them, or maybe 1-2 spots per 200 apartment building AND they are priced even higher than high cost basic concrete parking place. Anecdotal but it’s been my experience too here in the US. I don’t have a home to plug my car in and I really don’t want to deal with these charging games where you need an app and you have to queue and then be ready to swap your car in. Then you have to keep in mind when it’s done because others are in line. It’s such a hassle that I’m not getting an EV anytime soon. Plus my current vehicle runs without issue and probably will for the next 5-8 years (or more)
harrall 4mo ago
Ford is probably going to do it. They’re never the first but they consistently bring new major shifts in cars to the working class, without making some major compromises to the car (BYD) or being expensive (Tesla). They: - Brought affordable V8 engines to the working class - Got rid of the V8 and brought much more fuel efficient turbocharged vehicles to the working class - Made the first and a popular hybrid SUV, which is what Americans buy - Brought the first affordable passenger aerodynamic cars to the working class - Brought military grade aluminum bodies to a working class truck, massively increasing fuel economy - They obviously invented the moving car assembly line and were the first to make cars affordable Currently they’re working on an inexpensive electric car platform that borrows some of Tesla’s manufacturing ideas (but is way less complex because Tesla is actually unable to use it on their cars), switching to 48V, and trialing a new tree-based assembly line. And it will be a fully repairable car unlike BYD’s which transfers all impacts to the battery frame, which is safe and saves a lot of money but makes the cars impossible to repair. (BYD started as a tech company so they tend to view things to be disposable, like smartphones.) Ford watches all the other carmakers add new features and then figures out how to make it affordable and then they spend massive marketing campaigns to normalize it with regular people.
- z2 4mo ago
  I'm confused on the choice of Ford as a champion. Yes SUVs and trucks dominate in the US and that's Ford's focus, but I'm not sure what they learned from the commercial failures that were the Escape Hybrid and the F150 Lightning so that they will get it right and democratize EVs to the masses the second time. Or how their incremental innovations on ICE will translate to the "from the ground up" redesigns needed for a good EV. Or how the elimination of their more affordable cars in the name of chasing higher margin trucks will help bring things to the working class, as Ford's average sale price is now north of $55k, more expensive than the average Tesla. Also, BYD started as a battery company, not a consumer tech company. Their choice of cell-to-body integration certainly makes repairs hard, but it adds to safety, range, weight, in addition to saving on cost. That looks to me like a very deliberate trade-off, not a sacrifice in the name of undercutting everyone. Tesla did it for their 4680 cell Model Y too.

As an American, I'm going to be really sad when we miss this transition. Maybe there's still time?

by gcanyon 4mo ago

As an American, I'm going to be really sad when we miss this transition. Maybe there's still time?

It will happen. My guess is that Canada is BYD’s pilot into the US. They have very similar buyer characteristics and the Canadian tariff deal allows them to enter the market without taking the risks of local factories. It won’t take much to get BYD access to the US. It’s a two-step process: - Toss a million bucks at Trump or wait for a Democratic administration - Build a plant in Alabama/Tennessee/South Carolina/Georgia That’s literally all it takes.

galangalalgol 4mo ago
A million? 100M only gets you an ev advertisement on the Whitehouse lawn. It will need to be something more like Saudi Arabia's investment in ivanka, i mean the affinity group. 25M a year to his son in law gets your phone calls answered when you feel like Iran is acting up too much. I am not as optimistic. If that doesn't happen the only candidate likely to let china do as they wilt is aoc. Vance would happily start ww3 with them. Rubio/newsome/shapiro etc will all keep the full pressure of all allies in them, potentially kicking them out of places they already sell.
- gpm 4mo ago
  > Rubio/newsome/shapiro etc will all keep the full pressure of all allies in them, potentially kicking them out of places they already sell. I sincerely doubt the US is capable of this. Trump has lit your soft power on fire. Trying to get people to give up a superior and cheaper product is an extremely large ask.
  - bluGill 4mo ago
    The leaders there know that China isn't exactly a friend of liberal western democracy. They have won the current round of propoganda, but that doesn't mean they are anyone's friend either.
    - mjmsmith 4mo ago
      Still, if you're going to buy a car from an enemy of liberal western democracy, you might as well buy BYD over Tesla.
    - gpm 4mo ago
      > They have won the current round of propoganda No, they have won the current round of foreign relations. Threats to invade numerous allies. Blatant war crimes like murdering random people on boats. Violating established and signed trade deals left right and centre. Openly soliciting and accepting bribes. Kidnapping foreign countries citizens and holding them in inhumane camps. None of this is a matter of "propaganda" - it's a matter of actual actions the US is taking. > The leaders there know that China isn't exactly a friend of liberal western democracy. Indeed, but this has never been a prerequisite for trade with liberal western democracies. See for example the gulf monarchies we trade with. It is pretty much a prerequisite for extraordinary actions like successfully asking liberal western democracies to restrict trade though, and the US no longer meets it...
      - bluGill 4mo ago
        > They have won the current round of foreign relations. Which is to say Trump failed at the current round of propaganda. If he had won this round you would excuse all those things. Being a friend of liberal western democracies is not a requirement for trade. However it does influence how trade happens. >restrict trade though, and the US no longer meets it... Again, the US lost the current round of propaganda.
        gpm 4mo ago
        > Which is to say Trump failed at the current round of propaganda. No, it really isn't. "Propaganda" merely refers to communication intended to influence. Trump failed when it came down to actual actions, not just communication. And when he failed in communication it was actual diplomacy meant to come to agreements, not merely the words meant to influence minds. Propaganda is the least of the USes problems right now.
  - galangalalgol 4mo ago
    It is less about the us being capable of it, than the us getting out of the way. Japan, India, and SK all have vested interests in preventing further concentration of Chinese mercantilist power. Saying an establishment us president would focus the fury and might of allies is a bit outdated I agree. SK survived a coup, Piland is working on it. Hungary might even pull it off. Maybe the us will right the ship as well vs overcorrect into a different sort of populist autocrat. But even then as you say; That soft power went up in flames.
  - arjie 4mo ago
    The soft power that people talk about yielded instantly when used. Trump’s foreign policy has been fairly scatter shot and foolish but it has only revealed that soft power is only soft. When you attempt to exercise it you find nothing there. The other world powers are exercising their will directly through power as power: no amount of Hollywood or America Is The Good Guy belief ever bought America a trade deal or sanction power. The only power that America has is her Navy and the nuclear weapons under the seas. Power that cannot be summoned is not power. The illusion that it is suited American allies and her wider array of beneficiaries because it allowed them to call upon the world hegemon for aid. But America is not that sole superpower anymore so it is useful to her to know the illusion for what it is: an illusion.
    - gpm 4mo ago
      Yeah... that's just not the case. The US routinely successfully exercised its soft power prior to Trump 2.0. For example it's why this news article even exists - the US (under Biden) exercised its soft power to get Canada to effectively ban Chinese EVs - otherwise they would already be here.
      - arjie 4mo ago
        The news article is the news article but the reality is Canada operated under the threat of tariffs and now they have unconditional tariffs. Threatening someone with something lets you extract concessions. Using the threat removes the ability and makes it just math. China’s tariffs are more damaging than the US’s and are releasable so Canada makes deals with them. It’s more a story of hard power than soft power since economic damage ultimately led the way.
pjc50 4mo ago
I suspect America will continue to be weird about China until one of three things happens: - a new Great Power enemy is selected; it would make sense for this to be Russia, but India is also a candidate - some sort of face-saving moral victory is achieved which allows the US to continue feeling superior and not threatened by China's capability (unclear what this might look like) - Xi dies and his replacement launches a relationship reset
- red-iron-pine 4mo ago
  none of those points matter so long as Taiwan is a discussion point
- eunos 4mo ago
  > Xi dies and his replacement launches a relationship reset Among all Chinese leaders from the past and likely to the near future, Xi Jinping is the warmest towards US. He cherished his short stay in Iowa and his daughter graduated from Harvard. I dont think future leaders will share that feeling.
eunos 4mo ago
Nope the congressfolks from Ohio and Michigan would never allows that
- Grombobulous 4mo ago
  I think they might. Look who owns the Lordstown assembly plant. Honda has been the central Ohio automotive industry for decades.
  - eunos 4mo ago
    I think Senator Slotkin singular goal in her senate life is to prevent Chinese cars from crossing from Canada
wombat-man 4mo ago
Idk we have a lot of protectionism around vehicle sales in the US already. I don't think it'll be easy but it could happen.

infecto 4mo ago

It will absolutely happen. BYD is already in Mexico and the door has been opened in Canada.

z2 4mo ago

I see parallels with the failed metric system transition: a voluntary shift with inconsistent policy, the impression that it's all just an elitist/foreign conspiracy, cultural/political resistance, and so on. Of the major developed economies, only Japan is lower on BEV market share. Realistically the transition will probably happen in pockets, for instance California has similar EV sales share as Germany right now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

coldpie 4mo ago

> Maybe there's still time? I don't know that there is. It takes ages to develop an EV-focused platform, and the lines to manufacture it. Tesla is the only American manufacturer that has already done that work, and they're circling the drain. Aside from them, there's exactly one decent US-owned EV on the market, the Chevrolet Bolt. All of the top-of-the-line EVs are Korean or Chinese, and the 2nd tiers are all European. America's EVs aren't even on the horizon, they'll be playing catchup for decades.

bluGill 4mo ago
> there's exactly one decent US-owned EV on the market, the Chevrolet Bolt. I drive a Chevrolet Blazer EV. Test drove a Equinox EV as well. There is the silverado EV as well. Chrysler and Ford are mostly working on plug in hybrids which is 90% of the advantages of an EV for those who charge at home (if people will is debated). Which is to say the big-3 car makers all have EV or close enough EV cars and are making more.
- cogman10 4mo ago
  A major problem is that dealers hate carrying and selling EVs. If you want to get these vehicles you either have to special order them or you have to buy used. I think a big portion of why Tesla is so prominent is because it's relatively easy to get a Tesla almost anywhere. *edit* I'm out of date. It looks like the dealers around me are all stocking EVs now.
  - pjc50 4mo ago
    I wonder how US-specific this phenomenon is. UK dealerships don't seem to have a problem stocking them, and have been quick to pick up BYD franchises.
    - kevin_thibedeau 4mo ago
      The US specific part is that a decent portion of the population makes, at least occasionally, longer trips outside of urban centers where more limited range, longer charging stops, and the need to carefully plan routes to hit chargers (that are hopefully functioning) make ICE derived power more attractive.

bluGill 4mo ago

While America is slow, the transition is happening. There are a fair number of electric cars on the road. Some like the cybertruck are obvious, but there are a lot of cars that come in ICE or EV variants that you can't tell and people are talking. Don't lose hope.

afavour 4mo ago

It’ll happen eventually, it’s an economic certainty. And when it finally does it probably won’t be that bad for the American consumer buying a car. The real loss is the international trade and the effect that’ll have on the overall economy. Mexico and Canada will already be dominated by Chinese cars and it’ll be too late to compete.

Zambyte 4mo ago

Fellow American here, I hope we do. Not because electric cars are any worse than combustion cars - they are better. But they're still cars. Electrifying them is a bandaid on the gaping wound that is our transportation infrastructure. Ideally missing out on the electrification of cars dethrones the car as the only way most people get around.

no-name-here 4mo ago
I’m pro public transportation, but if EVs are held back in the U.S., does it seem more likely that will cause public transportation to sprout up, or that people will just continue relying on ICE? The best thing for the environment seems to be to do everything to get off ICE, including both EVs and public transport.
- Zambyte 4mo ago
  Falling behind on electric cars will probably not cause other options to thrive, but ideally it is a symptom of other options thriving. Also to be clear, I have been saying "electric cars" instead of EVs because I do see EVs as a large part of the solution. Lots of areas that would not be realistically covered by public transit could close the gaps with personal electric vehicles, like e-(cargo)bikes, e-trikes, and e-scooters (along with their acoustic counterparts for those who prefer, of course). The main problem with this being a solution right now is that for most of America, the infrastructure for these looks like a helmet and thoughts and prayers. Fixing America's transportation infrastructure includes trains, and roads to ride personal vehicles everywhere. If the Netherlands can do it, the richest nation in the world can do it.

Yizahi 4mo ago

As a European, US will probably overtake Europe on EVs soon and fast. You have two unique differences to many other countries - a lot of population lives in private houses or condos, where they can just plug in EV in a regular socket without much changes. And US has a sprawling net of private solar installations which will stimulate EVs even more as soon as people will wake up to bills they incur. And lastly US has a proper non-broken and user friendly net of charging stations, courtesy of one rocketman. Europe on the other hand had a big headstart and squandered it (and no, Norway doesn't count, Norway's experience can't and won't be transferred to other countries). I've spent almost a year looking at the new apartment complexes in a 1 mil city at different price tiers and levels of completion. Almost no charging spots in any of them, or maybe 1-2 spots per 200 apartment building AND they are priced even higher than high cost basic concrete parking place. Public charging stations are very limited in numbers, often closed or out of service. Interop is crap, I've used a corporate EV Astra while on a business trip and the card didn't work anywhere outside of the office parking lot, which by the way is a parking for a 5 storied business center occupied by IT companies and it has exactly 1 (one) moderately crappy charging pole with 1 (one) port. I had to drive to a Ford dealership in my Opel EV and a very pleasant gentleman had to swipe his card to start charging. Oh, and no charging poles had any display or app options, it literally had red, yellow or green led light and that's all we got. And it took me 1.5 hours to top up barely 100 km of range. Now that is an expensive 45k euro EV made no earlier than 2023 with minimal wear and mileage. In short - Europe "rode" on a wave of rich individuals buying their fun cars and able to afford all externalities for them. This population is running out or leveling. And Europe (both collectively and per-country basis) did barely anything to prepare other people, without fun car money or private houses for EV transition. For example, in my freshly constructed building there are 180 apartments and zero EV chargers. Would any of us buy EV any time soon? Especially since just the car itself usually cost more than similar ICE and there are no subsidies? Doubt it. And it is starting to show, when wildly optimistic EV transition targets are starting being pushed in the future.

pixelatedindex 4mo ago
> I've spent almost a year looking at the new apartment complexes in a 1 mil city at different price tiers and levels of completion. Almost no charging spots in any of them, or maybe 1-2 spots per 200 apartment building AND they are priced even higher than high cost basic concrete parking place. Anecdotal but it’s been my experience too here in the US. I don’t have a home to plug my car in and I really don’t want to deal with these charging games where you need an app and you have to queue and then be ready to swap your car in. Then you have to keep in mind when it’s done because others are in line. It’s such a hassle that I’m not getting an EV anytime soon. Plus my current vehicle runs without issue and probably will for the next 5-8 years (or more)

harrall 4mo ago

Ford is probably going to do it. They’re never the first but they consistently bring new major shifts in cars to the working class, without making some major compromises to the car (BYD) or being expensive (Tesla). They: - Brought affordable V8 engines to the working class - Got rid of the V8 and brought much more fuel efficient turbocharged vehicles to the working class - Made the first and a popular hybrid SUV, which is what Americans buy - Brought the first affordable passenger aerodynamic cars to the working class - Brought military grade aluminum bodies to a working class truck, massively increasing fuel economy - They obviously invented the moving car assembly line and were the first to make cars affordable Currently they’re working on an inexpensive electric car platform that borrows some of Tesla’s manufacturing ideas (but is way less complex because Tesla is actually unable to use it on their cars), switching to 48V, and trialing a new tree-based assembly line. And it will be a fully repairable car unlike BYD’s which transfers all impacts to the battery frame, which is safe and saves a lot of money but makes the cars impossible to repair. (BYD started as a tech company so they tend to view things to be disposable, like smartphones.) Ford watches all the other carmakers add new features and then figures out how to make it affordable and then they spend massive marketing campaigns to normalize it with regular people.

z2 4mo ago
I'm confused on the choice of Ford as a champion. Yes SUVs and trucks dominate in the US and that's Ford's focus, but I'm not sure what they learned from the commercial failures that were the Escape Hybrid and the F150 Lightning so that they will get it right and democratize EVs to the masses the second time. Or how their incremental innovations on ICE will translate to the "from the ground up" redesigns needed for a good EV. Or how the elimination of their more affordable cars in the name of chasing higher margin trucks will help bring things to the working class, as Ford's average sale price is now north of $55k, more expensive than the average Tesla. Also, BYD started as a battery company, not a consumer tech company. Their choice of cell-to-body integration certainly makes repairs hard, but it adds to safety, range, weight, in addition to saving on cost. That looks to me like a very deliberate trade-off, not a sacrifice in the name of undercutting everyone. Tesla did it for their 4680 cell Model Y too.