3 ms·

Fascinating to see that MENA is a net positive on migration. There's often a lot of rhetoric around MENA migration to Europe and North America, but you hear muc

Fascinating to see that MENA is a net positive on migration. There's often a lot of rhetoric around MENA migration to Europe and North America, but you hear much less about migration to MENA countries.

Cthulhu_ 4mo ago
I think people underestimate how many people move back to their home country once they have a better chance (through e.g. education or money) and / or when the situation there improves (e.g. stability). It's why I don't understand why the anti-immigration parties don't do more internationally to help other countries.
- expedition32 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - AnimalMuppet 4mo ago
    Less cynically, perhaps we correctly realize that some countries are beyond our saving by us throwing money at them.
  - jimkleiber 4mo ago
    Why "correctly"? Who says that a country or a group of humans or even an individual human is beyond saving?
    - graphime 4mo ago
      > Who says that a country or a group of humans or even an individual human is beyond saving? The one doing the saving. Surely the one needing help should not be the to decide. They will always say “I’m worth saving”.
      - jimkleiber 4mo ago
        [dead]
- readthenotes1 4mo ago
  The reason why pouring money into countries that source immigrants is a questionable solution is graft.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - jimkleiber 4mo ago
    Yes, pouring money may not be a very efficient solution and graft can certainly happen. For me it's a combination of how much graft do we allow if we take the long perspective and see it shrinking over time (maybe we dont allow any, cold turkey)? And what are ways we can help change the environments that may not be directly tied to money? From my perspective, we often need (and graft) money the most when we don't trust ourselves and others to help us. So are there ways we can help build deeper relationships so money is not the only focus or way people think they can get help?
- carlosjobim 4mo ago
  Or move back to your home country once you've gained a beneficial citizenship and can have foreign government benefits paid out every month while you don't even live in that country anymore.
  - jimkleiber 4mo ago
    Perhaps. I think it's more about the passport ranking so one can travel and also the salary bump. But even if more of the other government services, try living in a country where if you get into a serious car accident you have to pay cash at the ER before they treat you. Scrambling to find multiple thousands of dollars in cash at 3am sometimes. (This happened to my friend in Kenya) Im not sure if I can blame people for wanting to have more financial or medical security.
    - carlosjobim 4mo ago
      I think a very low percentage of migrants do it so that they can get a better passport for traveling. Sure, there are people who do that also.
      - jimkleiber 4mo ago
        Fair point. I also think the same group you're talking about is probably not thinking about going back home with just government benefits to sustain them. They probably are more focused on working in countries with higher wages and building big homes back home. I think it tends to be more wage driven than government benefit driven, but I could be wrong.
    - slow_typist 4mo ago
      Is it legal to let people suffer or even die at the ER on Kenya if they don’t happen to carry a few k$?
      - jimkleiber 4mo ago
        Fair point, just looked it up and it seems to be illegal to do that. But in my experience, many probably still do it, or people don't trust that hospitals will follow the law...it may be more of that latter part, not knowing whether they will or won't ask you for money, or whether they will or won't take your insurance. So I think that uncertainty can mean having to be prepared for it anyway.
- selicos 4mo ago
  This was a primary goal (if not states) of USAID and related programs. Stem the causes of immigration, support stability, and create goodwill for the donor country. Still imperialistic and self serving in many ways, but it worked. On the other hand, I've recently talked with a Polish to US immigrant who was moving back to Poland this summer as jobs and more had improved. They were competitive (in his mind) with the lack of opportunity and anti immigrant thinking across the US today.
- newaccountman2 4mo ago
  > It's why I don't understand why the anti-immigration parties don't do more internationally to help other countries. Well, I think I can help you out with that...
pjc50 4mo ago
The Gulf states take in a lot of migrant workers, who have basically no labour rights there. https://www.ilo.org/regions-and-countries/arab-states/united-arab-emirates https://www.ilo.org/regions-and-countries/arab-states/united... "The UAE hosts some 8.7 million migrant workers – equivalent to over 80 per cent of the country’s resident population – making it one of the largest foreign labour-receiving countries in the world. With Emirati nationals mainly employed in the public sector, migrant workers constitute the bulk of private sector employment"
- jimjimjim 4mo ago
  Yep. When I was in Kuwait, admittedly 20 years ago, there were a LOT of non-kuwaitis there as most manual labor jobs were done by foreign workers. I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the same today.
nirav72 4mo ago
Isn't migration to MENA - specifically migration to North Africa mainly from Sub-Saharan part of Africa?
somenameforme 4mo ago
Saudi Arabia has one of the highest immigration populations on Earth, somewhere around 42% contrasted against 15.8% in the US (which is an all-time high). They offer huge wages for pretty much everything, have dirt cheap living costs, and like many Mideast countries - there's no taxes for individuals.
- profsummergig 4mo ago
  These are expats, not immigrants. They aren't welcome to become citizens in Saudi Arabia.
  - swiftcoder 4mo ago
    I'm not entirely clear that the migration dataset actually distinguishes between those cases?
    - profsummergig 4mo ago
      My comment was based on Saudi Arabia's expat policy. Not on the dataset. Saudi Arabia doesn't welcome foreigners moving there to become citizens.
toasty228 4mo ago
> Fascinating to see that MENA is a net positive on migration. Really? it's a big economical hub now, the bulk of it migrate to a few countries, and in these countries just a few cities. It's a very different type of migration too. https://www.iom.int/sites/g/files/tmzbdl2616/files/2018-07/Migration-in-the-Middle-East-and-North-Africa_Data%20Sheet_August2016.pdf https://www.iom.int/sites/g/files/tmzbdl2616/files/2018-07/M...

Cthulhu_ 4mo ago

I think people underestimate how many people move back to their home country once they have a better chance (through e.g. education or money) and / or when the situation there improves (e.g. stability). It's why I don't understand why the anti-immigration parties don't do more internationally to help other countries.

expedition32 4mo ago
[flagged]
- AnimalMuppet 4mo ago
  Less cynically, perhaps we correctly realize that some countries are beyond our saving by us throwing money at them.
- jimkleiber 4mo ago
  Why "correctly"? Who says that a country or a group of humans or even an individual human is beyond saving?
  - graphime 4mo ago
    > Who says that a country or a group of humans or even an individual human is beyond saving? The one doing the saving. Surely the one needing help should not be the to decide. They will always say “I’m worth saving”.
    - jimkleiber 4mo ago
      [dead]
readthenotes1 4mo ago
The reason why pouring money into countries that source immigrants is a questionable solution is graft.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- jimkleiber 4mo ago
  Yes, pouring money may not be a very efficient solution and graft can certainly happen. For me it's a combination of how much graft do we allow if we take the long perspective and see it shrinking over time (maybe we dont allow any, cold turkey)? And what are ways we can help change the environments that may not be directly tied to money? From my perspective, we often need (and graft) money the most when we don't trust ourselves and others to help us. So are there ways we can help build deeper relationships so money is not the only focus or way people think they can get help?
carlosjobim 4mo ago
Or move back to your home country once you've gained a beneficial citizenship and can have foreign government benefits paid out every month while you don't even live in that country anymore.
- jimkleiber 4mo ago
  Perhaps. I think it's more about the passport ranking so one can travel and also the salary bump. But even if more of the other government services, try living in a country where if you get into a serious car accident you have to pay cash at the ER before they treat you. Scrambling to find multiple thousands of dollars in cash at 3am sometimes. (This happened to my friend in Kenya) Im not sure if I can blame people for wanting to have more financial or medical security.
  - carlosjobim 4mo ago
    I think a very low percentage of migrants do it so that they can get a better passport for traveling. Sure, there are people who do that also.
    - jimkleiber 4mo ago
      Fair point. I also think the same group you're talking about is probably not thinking about going back home with just government benefits to sustain them. They probably are more focused on working in countries with higher wages and building big homes back home. I think it tends to be more wage driven than government benefit driven, but I could be wrong.
  - slow_typist 4mo ago
    Is it legal to let people suffer or even die at the ER on Kenya if they don’t happen to carry a few k$?
    - jimkleiber 4mo ago
      Fair point, just looked it up and it seems to be illegal to do that. But in my experience, many probably still do it, or people don't trust that hospitals will follow the law...it may be more of that latter part, not knowing whether they will or won't ask you for money, or whether they will or won't take your insurance. So I think that uncertainty can mean having to be prepared for it anyway.
selicos 4mo ago
This was a primary goal (if not states) of USAID and related programs. Stem the causes of immigration, support stability, and create goodwill for the donor country. Still imperialistic and self serving in many ways, but it worked. On the other hand, I've recently talked with a Polish to US immigrant who was moving back to Poland this summer as jobs and more had improved. They were competitive (in his mind) with the lack of opportunity and anti immigrant thinking across the US today.
newaccountman2 4mo ago
> It's why I don't understand why the anti-immigration parties don't do more internationally to help other countries. Well, I think I can help you out with that...

pjc50 4mo ago

The Gulf states take in a lot of migrant workers, who have basically no labour rights there. https://www.ilo.org/regions-and-countries/arab-states/united-arab-emirates https://www.ilo.org/regions-and-countries/arab-states/united... "The UAE hosts some 8.7 million migrant workers – equivalent to over 80 per cent of the country’s resident population – making it one of the largest foreign labour-receiving countries in the world. With Emirati nationals mainly employed in the public sector, migrant workers constitute the bulk of private sector employment"

jimjimjim 4mo ago
Yep. When I was in Kuwait, admittedly 20 years ago, there were a LOT of non-kuwaitis there as most manual labor jobs were done by foreign workers. I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the same today.

nirav72 4mo ago

Isn't migration to MENA - specifically migration to North Africa mainly from Sub-Saharan part of Africa?

somenameforme 4mo ago

Saudi Arabia has one of the highest immigration populations on Earth, somewhere around 42% contrasted against 15.8% in the US (which is an all-time high). They offer huge wages for pretty much everything, have dirt cheap living costs, and like many Mideast countries - there's no taxes for individuals.

profsummergig 4mo ago
These are expats, not immigrants. They aren't welcome to become citizens in Saudi Arabia.
- swiftcoder 4mo ago
  I'm not entirely clear that the migration dataset actually distinguishes between those cases?
  - profsummergig 4mo ago
    My comment was based on Saudi Arabia's expat policy. Not on the dataset. Saudi Arabia doesn't welcome foreigners moving there to become citizens.

toasty228 4mo ago

> Fascinating to see that MENA is a net positive on migration. Really? it's a big economical hub now, the bulk of it migrate to a few countries, and in these countries just a few cities. It's a very different type of migration too. https://www.iom.int/sites/g/files/tmzbdl2616/files/2018-07/Migration-in-the-Middle-East-and-North-Africa_Data%20Sheet_August2016.pdf https://www.iom.int/sites/g/files/tmzbdl2616/files/2018-07/M...