4 ms·

I'm curious if people have a good story for why WASI will succeed where Java failed

by wyager 4mo ago

simonw 4mo ago
My main one is that WASI has benefitted from an additional 31 years of accumulated industry-wide experience compared to when Java was first released.
- pjmlp 4mo ago
  So where has the experience gone in the support of C and C++ for WASM?
- DonHopkins 4mo ago
  Plus, Larry Ellison doesn't own WASM: "Lawnmower Not Included"!
Panzerschrek 4mo ago
Programs written in Java require installation of a middleware called Java runtime. It adds extra friction for end-users. And even if one has Java runtime installed, a newer version may be necessary for a recently-published application. With WASM it may be the same, unless al major OS vendors integrate a WASM runtime so that it doesn't need to be installed separately.
- pjmlp 4mo ago
  It is exactly the same for WASM outside of the browser, and Java has Android as counter part to built in runtime.
  - auggierose 4mo ago
    Yes, but inside the browser is a freaking big use case.
    - pjmlp 4mo ago
      Not really, I don't need COM / CORBA on the browser.
      - auggierose 4mo ago
        Good for you! In other words, you don't write compute heavy applications for the browser? I never used COM or CORBA, by the way, just too freaking ugly.
  - afiori 4mo ago
    Java's vm does not start in milliseconds nor has dozen independent implementations in every ecosystem
    - pjmlp 4mo ago
      Folks tend to think only Oracle does Java, and the only place to get it is from https://www.java.com https://www.java.com. Maybe they should broaden their horizons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines And some like PTC or microEJ are missing from the list.
- bzzzt 4mo ago
  > Programs written in Java require installation of a middleware called Java runtime. It's possible to link or embed a Java runtime in an existing application.
- tpm 4mo ago
  > It adds extra friction for end-users It doesn't have to, the program can bundle its own jre as its often the case, and then you also don't have to worry about jre compatibility. Downside is then you have many jres installed and of course you can't trust their sandboxing.
- GoblinSlayer 4mo ago
  >And even if one has Java runtime installed, a newer version may be necessary for a recently-published application. WASM doesn't remove version churn, the linked article literally discusses a newer version. Oh and the wonderful web compat story.
fla 4mo ago
My main one is: distribution & access. If major browsers implement the WASI runtime then using and distributing a WASI app will be way simpler than the Java equivalent ever was.
afiori 4mo ago
Because Java was doing nothing similar, a better comparison would be .NET CLR that actually tried to be a decent compilation target. Also security, Java has reflection so you cannot reliably sandbox java libraries

I'm curious if people have a good story for why WASI will succeed where Java failed

by wyager 4mo ago

I'm curious if people have a good story for why WASI will succeed where Java failed

My main one is that WASI has benefitted from an additional 31 years of accumulated industry-wide experience compared to when Java was first released.

pjmlp 4mo ago
So where has the experience gone in the support of C and C++ for WASM?
DonHopkins 4mo ago
Plus, Larry Ellison doesn't own WASM: "Lawnmower Not Included"!

Panzerschrek 4mo ago

Programs written in Java require installation of a middleware called Java runtime. It adds extra friction for end-users. And even if one has Java runtime installed, a newer version may be necessary for a recently-published application. With WASM it may be the same, unless al major OS vendors integrate a WASM runtime so that it doesn't need to be installed separately.

pjmlp 4mo ago
It is exactly the same for WASM outside of the browser, and Java has Android as counter part to built in runtime.
- auggierose 4mo ago
  Yes, but inside the browser is a freaking big use case.
  - pjmlp 4mo ago
    Not really, I don't need COM / CORBA on the browser.
    - auggierose 4mo ago
      Good for you! In other words, you don't write compute heavy applications for the browser? I never used COM or CORBA, by the way, just too freaking ugly.
- afiori 4mo ago
  Java's vm does not start in milliseconds nor has dozen independent implementations in every ecosystem
  - pjmlp 4mo ago
    Folks tend to think only Oracle does Java, and the only place to get it is from https://www.java.com https://www.java.com. Maybe they should broaden their horizons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_machines And some like PTC or microEJ are missing from the list.
bzzzt 4mo ago
> Programs written in Java require installation of a middleware called Java runtime. It's possible to link or embed a Java runtime in an existing application.
tpm 4mo ago
> It adds extra friction for end-users It doesn't have to, the program can bundle its own jre as its often the case, and then you also don't have to worry about jre compatibility. Downside is then you have many jres installed and of course you can't trust their sandboxing.
GoblinSlayer 4mo ago
>And even if one has Java runtime installed, a newer version may be necessary for a recently-published application. WASM doesn't remove version churn, the linked article literally discusses a newer version. Oh and the wonderful web compat story.

fla 4mo ago

My main one is: distribution & access. If major browsers implement the WASI runtime then using and distributing a WASI app will be way simpler than the Java equivalent ever was.

afiori 4mo ago

Because Java was doing nothing similar, a better comparison would be .NET CLR that actually tried to be a decent compilation target. Also security, Java has reflection so you cannot reliably sandbox java libraries