5 ms·

For a non-bat to experience what it is like to be a bat, you have to embrace one of two philosophies: - Dualism: body and soul/consciousness are separate), or -

by dwd 4mo ago

For a non-bat to experience what it is like to be a bat, you have to embrace one of two philosophies: - Dualism: body and soul/consciousness are separate), or - Panpsychism: consciousness is fundamental and doesn't emerge from the material physiology. For a materialist, and someone who thinks consciousness arises from the physical aspects, the idea of a human experiencing bat consciousness is not possible. Our evolution developed algorithm for processing the world is wired to our senses. Similarly a bat's perception of the world has evolved along with bat senses and is not the same as ours. Without any of the evolutionary pre-wiring, a human conscious dropped into a bat would be deaf, dumb and blind.

fellowniusmonk 4mo ago
This seems like a clear false dichotomy.
t-writescode 4mo ago
But when you look at brain organoids they quickly find themselves able to play video games as complex as Doom.
KingMob 4mo ago
The essay is not about whether a human could experience bat consciousness. > "In so far as I can imagine this (which is not very far), it tells me only what it would be like for me to behave as a bat behaves. But that is not the question. I want to know what it is like for a bat to be a bat.
- anon-3988 4mo ago
  This is like asking whats its like to turn fire into water. If you become a bat, you are a bat, you cannot get out of that space and think "oh so that is what it is like to be a bat". Now if you are able to freely transform into a bat and maintain consciousness back and forth, then you are now a consciousness that is able to experience both. Again not a bat. This is to say that I don't even know what it is like to be you, the commenter. As I am writing this, I am imagining a consciousness on the other side of the monitor that is somewhat like me. But this is just my consciousness extending itself and imagining another consciousness within its own consciousness.
  - close04 4mo ago
    > If you become a bat, you are a bat, you cannot get out of that space and think "oh so that is what it is like to be a bat". This is what makes the question so difficult. The human would experience what is like for a bat to be a bat but in the context of human understanding and consciousness. It already makes too little sense so maybe an analogy to attaching a debugger is getting close? Or "running a bat" as a VM or inside a sandbox in the human mind hypervisor, one brain brain hemisphere is the bat (with virtual peripherals), the other observes and experiences everything as a human. But in the end the goal would be to have the full bat experience on your own skin and perception, and then process it as a human to understand as a human would.
  - KingMob 4mo ago
    [dead]
MarceliusK 4mo ago
The point isn't that a human could literally sample bat experience. It's that if bat experience exists, it is tied to a form of embodiment and perception that we can describe externally but not fully inhabit subjectively
deleted 4mo ago
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by dwd 4mo ago

fellowniusmonk 4mo ago

This seems like a clear false dichotomy.

t-writescode 4mo ago

But when you look at brain organoids they quickly find themselves able to play video games as complex as Doom.

KingMob 4mo ago

The essay is not about whether a human could experience bat consciousness. > "In so far as I can imagine this (which is not very far), it tells me only what it would be like for me to behave as a bat behaves. But that is not the question. I want to know what it is like for a bat to be a bat.

anon-3988 4mo ago
This is like asking whats its like to turn fire into water. If you become a bat, you are a bat, you cannot get out of that space and think "oh so that is what it is like to be a bat". Now if you are able to freely transform into a bat and maintain consciousness back and forth, then you are now a consciousness that is able to experience both. Again not a bat. This is to say that I don't even know what it is like to be you, the commenter. As I am writing this, I am imagining a consciousness on the other side of the monitor that is somewhat like me. But this is just my consciousness extending itself and imagining another consciousness within its own consciousness.
- close04 4mo ago
  > If you become a bat, you are a bat, you cannot get out of that space and think "oh so that is what it is like to be a bat". This is what makes the question so difficult. The human would experience what is like for a bat to be a bat but in the context of human understanding and consciousness. It already makes too little sense so maybe an analogy to attaching a debugger is getting close? Or "running a bat" as a VM or inside a sandbox in the human mind hypervisor, one brain brain hemisphere is the bat (with virtual peripherals), the other observes and experiences everything as a human. But in the end the goal would be to have the full bat experience on your own skin and perception, and then process it as a human to understand as a human would.
- KingMob 4mo ago
  [dead]

MarceliusK 4mo ago

The point isn't that a human could literally sample bat experience. It's that if bat experience exists, it is tied to a form of embodiment and perception that we can describe externally but not fully inhabit subjectively

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]