4 ms·

I think he makes it pretty clear he's only talking about the second one of your two definitions >What it is like to be a bat could be rephrased as what it woul

by why_at 4mo ago

I think he makes it pretty clear he's only talking about the second one of your two definitions >What it is like to be a bat could be rephrased as what it would be like to experience being a bat if a person were being a bat He says: >[what] it would be like for me to behave as a bat behaves. But that is not the question. I want to know what it is like for a bat to be a bat The point is that bats do have a subjective experience of the world which is very different from a person's. It seems like you think only humans have this?

simiones 4mo ago
> The point is that bats do have a subjective experience of the world which is very different from a person's. It seems like you think only humans have this? This is definitely a possibility given the very basic level of understanding we have of this. The reality is that we don't know, and we don't even have a well defined way to know (that is, we don't even have any idea what kind of proof we would need to bring that animals have an experience of the world in some sense that is the same as ours but different from a rock's).
- bobson381 4mo ago
  I'm with Alan Watts. It's consciousness all the way down, in a unified, Spinozan, sense. A rock feels rock like you feel you, just in rock ways. Tat Tvam Asi, in a way. It's useful for us to have the concept of separateness, like it's useful for us to have the concept of names, or a foot, or dollars, etc. But it doesn't mean things really are separate.
- solumunus 4mo ago
  We don’t know, in the same way that we don’t know that there is no God… It’s far more likely than not that they do experience things.
  - simiones 4mo ago
    > It’s far more likely than not that they do experience things. I don't think this is a fair statement. I also happen to believe that there are no gods and that most animals have subjective experiences in some sense similar to our own (while I also believe that atoms and rocks don't), but I don't really think there is a meaningful probability you can associate with either position.
    - solumunus 4mo ago
      That they don’t experience anything would be a more shocking revelation to almost everyone, I think.
randallsquared 4mo ago
If I was certain that bats had a subjective experience of the world, it would mean I think bats are people, just non-human ones. That's what being a person is: a subjective experiencer. Since we don't understand how personal experience happens in humans, yet, I can't be fully sure that bats aren't persons, but I would agree that I think it's unlikely they are.
- why_at 4mo ago
  >it would mean I think bats are people, just non-human ones. That's what being a person is: a subjective experiencer. Okay, I think this is part of what I found confusing about your initial comment, since "person" is often used interchangeably with "human". But if you're using it to mean something that has a subjective experience then that's fine. >I can't be fully sure that bats aren't persons, but I would agree that I think it's unlikely they are. This sounds like it would put you with the "extremists" then? It's widely agreed that all mammals if not all vertebrates have some subjective experience, consciousness, sentience, or whatever you want to call it.[1][2] As you've said though we can't be fully sure. Do you think any non-humans have this? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness [2]https://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf https://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciou...

by why_at 4mo ago

simiones 4mo ago

> The point is that bats do have a subjective experience of the world which is very different from a person's. It seems like you think only humans have this? This is definitely a possibility given the very basic level of understanding we have of this. The reality is that we don't know, and we don't even have a well defined way to know (that is, we don't even have any idea what kind of proof we would need to bring that animals have an experience of the world in some sense that is the same as ours but different from a rock's).

bobson381 4mo ago
I'm with Alan Watts. It's consciousness all the way down, in a unified, Spinozan, sense. A rock feels rock like you feel you, just in rock ways. Tat Tvam Asi, in a way. It's useful for us to have the concept of separateness, like it's useful for us to have the concept of names, or a foot, or dollars, etc. But it doesn't mean things really are separate.
solumunus 4mo ago
We don’t know, in the same way that we don’t know that there is no God… It’s far more likely than not that they do experience things.
- simiones 4mo ago
  > It’s far more likely than not that they do experience things. I don't think this is a fair statement. I also happen to believe that there are no gods and that most animals have subjective experiences in some sense similar to our own (while I also believe that atoms and rocks don't), but I don't really think there is a meaningful probability you can associate with either position.
  - solumunus 4mo ago
    That they don’t experience anything would be a more shocking revelation to almost everyone, I think.

randallsquared 4mo ago

If I was certain that bats had a subjective experience of the world, it would mean I think bats are people, just non-human ones. That's what being a person is: a subjective experiencer. Since we don't understand how personal experience happens in humans, yet, I can't be fully sure that bats aren't persons, but I would agree that I think it's unlikely they are.

why_at 4mo ago
>it would mean I think bats are people, just non-human ones. That's what being a person is: a subjective experiencer. Okay, I think this is part of what I found confusing about your initial comment, since "person" is often used interchangeably with "human". But if you're using it to mean something that has a subjective experience then that's fine. >I can't be fully sure that bats aren't persons, but I would agree that I think it's unlikely they are. This sounds like it would put you with the "extremists" then? It's widely agreed that all mammals if not all vertebrates have some subjective experience, consciousness, sentience, or whatever you want to call it.[1][2] As you've said though we can't be fully sure. Do you think any non-humans have this? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness [2]https://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciousness.pdf https://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConsciou...