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Cable companies aren’t “forcing” people into piracy

27 points by DaNmarner 14y ago

AnthonyMouse 14y ago
This argument strikes me as missing the point. Piracy isn't a morals problem, it's an economics problem. Exhorting pirates to stop being pirates is likely to be about as effective as Don't Copy That Floppy or trying to fight drug cartels with Mr. Mackey and DARE -- they don't think what they're doing is wrong, or they don't care, and you're not going to change their minds. Which leaves you with an economic choice. Either copyright holders can have more availability and less piracy, or the other way around. Now maybe they decide they want less availability and more piracy -- maybe they think (almost certainly incorrectly) that that will make them more money. But if that's the case then you might as well go ahead and give up on the pirates, because that's the decision you've made: The decision to create a supply shortage and therefore a market incentive for piracy sufficient to create a critical mass of pirates and commercial enterprises reliant on piracy who, once established, will fight for their own continued existence. The best case scenario is that the outcome is less violent than the organized crime families created by prohibition or the drug cartels created by the War on Drugs. Or you can make sure everybody can get their fix from legitimate sources. Then piracy becomes less profitable because it has less of an advantage over purchasing, and some existing pirates discontinue their pirating, which reduces the strength of the pirate community, reduces the demand for illicit releases and thus the incentive to supply them, etc. But hey, it's your decision. Do whatever you want. If you want you can fight the market and then wail about morality when the inevitable economic consequences ensue. But I wouldn't.
- GHFigs 14y ago
  Piracy isn't a morals problem, it's an economics problem. I find it difficult to reconcile this with the near-constant moral tirades about it, such as those which claim piracy is not about people being cheap, or those which claim rightsholders are "forcing" people into piracy. One might also recognize those arguments as the ones this post is actually addressing on its way to (as you say) "missing the point".
  - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
    I think we have to distinguish two arguments the pirates make. Some are saying that they intend to consume your content one way or another, and if you offer it in a convenient medium for an appropriate price then they'll buy it, and if not then they'll pirate it. That's an economic argument. You could call it an economic threat and try to make the moral argument that they shouldn't be doing that, but unless you can actually stop them in a just and cost-effective manner then you're just back to barking up the wrong tree if your goal is to actually accomplish anything. On the other hand, there are pirates who argue that if the content provider doesn't provide the content in a convenient format at an appropriate price then it's justifiable to pirate it (rather than just doing it whether it's justifiable or not). But that's not really an argument at all. It has to be justifiable because of something. And if it isn't then the pirates are in the same pit as the article: No reasoning and no plan. But maybe the pirate argues that copyright is unjustified whatsoever as a constraint on expression or what have you. Maybe they make an argument about the social contract, where copyright is granted to promote dissemination of new works, and works that are created but not sufficiently widely disseminated are a breach of the contract on the part of the copyright holder that justifies a breach on the part of the consumer. Maybe some other justification. But these are inherently economic and policy arguments with correspondingly clear plans of action: Abolish or reduce copyright, blunt the social cost of the copyright monopoly by allowing as fair use any use the copyright holder fails to supply to the market on reasonable terms, etc. The article doesn't choose any such premise to attack, it just says "no, dirty pirates are bad and piracy is wrong." That isn't rebutting anything. It doesn't solve anything. There is no plan of action. It's just "no" -- how is that good for anything?
zaccus 14y ago
Whether piracy is wrong or not is irrelevant. The fact is, as long as piracy is possible, people will do it. And it will continue to be possible for the foreseeable future. Complaining about it is as pointless as complaining about the weather. If it's hurting your business, that sucks. Adapt.
maurits 14y ago
This argument is, I think, completely correct, but also to a certain extend irrelevant. The real discussion should, in my opinion, be held on the supply side of digital content for it still seems to be crowded with companies who for better or worse can not or will not deal with the ramifications of our new networked world and keep dwelling in poor service whilst preaching that piracy is sinful. Companies, whom I might add not so long ago, were happy to push for legislation that would alter the way our basic democratic freedoms work, all in the name of copyright. I find anti-piracy crowd to be highly similar to politicians or policy-makers who advocate abstinence. In principle the argument is correct, you only need to forget that in the real world people don't quite work that way. Piracy, in the end to me, is not a moral problem, but a service problem. If you care to fix it, that is.
jamesmiller5 14y ago
I think there is an obligation to obey the wishes and rights of the content providers regardless of your respect for those obligations and whether or not those arrangements serve you fairly. To demand the ability to dictate terms of the arrangement and disregard the terms offered to you is enlightenment. (The special case of this is when an entity represses another with a monopoly, but that doesn't apply here as there is no single monopoly on all entertainment.) You may be the shows, musicians, entertainments, etc's target audience but you are not in the current target market. As others routinely point out, content providers need address this. It is a failure for them to not capitalize on an audience. The pragmatic solution is to sponsor organizations and entertainment that you are the both in the target audience and target market. Ad supported media, Humble Indie Bundle, Pay-what-you-want entertainment and Kickstarter projects are all ways you can easily support content on more respectable terms. By pirating, you really are letting content providers off the hook by not forcing them to compete with providers that you favor. There is an opportunity cost that you pay by not investing in media where you were the target market and those vested parties respect you. Edit: grammar
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
yarrel 14y ago
"If you can’t watch something legally until it comes out on Netflix or whatever service you use, you have only two justifiable options: either wait, or don’t watch it." Or, alternatively, if you're going to anyway what's the problem again? Mass media is meant to be a convenient, efficient market. When it isn't the moral failing is not on the part of consumers.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  It's morally wrong to not sell you something?
- sarvinc 14y ago
  I'm not sure about moral failure but I agree that this is a hole in Marco's argument.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - lmm 14y ago
    But I do have access to it. It's right there on all those torrent sites. And morality is subjective. If enough people think that whether or not the creators are selling a TV show on itunes makes a difference to the morality of downloading it from other sources, then it does.
  - ameister14 14y ago
    This is an interesting argument. Are you actually consuming anything? The act of consumption implies a physical loss; if the content still exists, what did you consume? In the examples of diamonds, Ferrari or a beach house, there is a limitation on possession. With content, no such limitation exists; it used to be simply a limitation on distribution. Now the distribution limits are gone.
  - AnIrishDuck 14y ago
    Content is an entirely different "market" economically than the other examples you describe. In fact, content is one of a few class of goods with a high fixed cost for initial creation and near zero cost for incremental creation. Physical goods are generally characterized by linear supply and demand curves. Suppliers require higher and higher payments to produce more and more of a good, and consumers will buy less if something costs more. Here's a graph with classic linear supply-demand curves: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+2Q http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+2Q Note the intersection point: this is the equilibrium in microeconomics. It is a "compromise" reached by producers satisfied with their level of output, and consumers satisfied with their level of consumption. Content turns conventional microeconomics on its head. Now, suppliers have a large fixed cost that they can divide among all paying users. So the supply-demand curves look like this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+20+%2F+Q http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+20+... This situation is entirely different! For starters, there isn't one equilibrium, there's two. Which "equilibrium" will the market choose? This is a question that I haven't seen addressed in microecon before. I'm sure it's been addressed in economic research but unfortunately my exposure to economics is limited. I would appreciate if someone on HN with more knowledge could set me straight. Taking a step back to philosophical economics, content creation is a manifestation of the public good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good) problem. This reality has only been enhanced recently with vanishing incremental copy costs. Entitlement of content creators has satisfyingly solved the problem before, but with the rapid advance of technology I doubt it will do so in the future. EDIT: piracy is also well-studied in the abstract as the economic free-rider problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem)
addlepate 14y ago
Agreed. I do this, but I don't try to pretend that it's for some noble purpose. It's because I want to watch whatever and I'm not really interested in the arbitrary restrictions against that. I also happen to understand what's wrong with that. The attempt to paint this as some sort of moral crusade against Big Media is narcissism.
stephengillie 14y ago
Marketing campaigns make people "want very badly" what they can't have. Yet they can, and they don't even have to pay for it. At some level, the copyright issue is just a question of "wants" vs "needs" of humans. When does "wanting something badly enough" become "needing" it? Are we addicted to content -- are Big Media the dealers leeching off our habit?
- debacle 14y ago
  No.
- jivatmanx 14y ago
  Not everything copyrighted is a throwaway popular culture movie. If they were, perhaps it would be justifiable to completely eliminate public domain. Everything after 1923 is in copyright, and thus affects an era even before movies with recorded sound were even invented.
  - stephengillie 14y ago
    I've read this several times and I'm still not able to understand what you mean. Part of your post seems like it's opposing mine, while another part is supporting mine...
sarvinc 14y ago
I'm not sure I see the point in arguing that piracy is or isn't justifiable. It's happening and it seems to be increasing. The sad fact is that it's easier to pirate than it is to pay. I pay for cable, HBO, Showtime, etc. but exclusively use a Mac Mini and torrent everything. Do I feel that what I'm doing is justifiable, no. Is it easier for me, yes.
- Tycho 14y ago
  Only if you're obsessed with watching something specific. If I wanted to watch a film, it's much easier to pick something off iTunes or Netflix than download a torrent. If they don't have exactly the thing I wanted to watch, I could go and pirate it... or, you know, just watch something else. I think lots of people are too obsessive about their media consumption for their own good. The prevalence of torrents is symptomatic.
  - sarvinc 14y ago
    Sorry for the late reply. "Only if you're obsessed with watching something specific." I take issue with the word "obsessed" but I agree with you point. I'll even, try to, do you one better; if I want to watch something it's easier for me to turn on the T.V. "I think lots of people are too obsessive about their media consumption for their own good. The prevalence of torrents is symptomatic." I'm not sure I'm following you. If I do understand you then I think you're wrong here. It's a bit like saying people are too picky about the music they listen to; the Billboard's top 50 should be enough for them etc.
mhb 14y ago
Original essay: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/why-are-cable-companies-forcing-people-to-turn-to-piracy.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/why-are-cab...
- sarvinc 14y ago
  I'm not the original poster but I'm more interested in discussing Marco's post than the original. The original is attacking a straw-man.
fnbaptiste 14y ago
I recently ditched my cable company but not because I felt they were forcing me into piracy. I agree with this article, though I do still occasionally pirate television. Mostly I use Netflix on my XBox, which I pay for, but Canadian Netflix is pretty lame. I agree pirating is morally questionable, though I don't feel bad the slightest bit when I do it.
holograham 14y ago
By not watching the shows at all HBO (or other companies) cannot aggregate consumer demand for their show. If you are interested in watching a show and find it inconvenient then blatant pirating can actually help a cable company quantify the demand for the time and mediums of distribution. (yes those companies track aggregate pirating stats)
- sarvinc 14y ago
  I imagine piracy stats are probably more accurate then Nielsen ratings.
- dlytle 14y ago
  Thank you for saying what I came here to say. Let's look at two scenarios: They both involve a show that 100k people want to watch, but 20k of those people can't/won't watch it using the methods legally provided. (Fuzzy/simple math to illustrate the point.) In scenario one, those 20k pirate the show instead. This means that the known demand for the show is 100k viewers, 80k using legal distribution, 20k using illegal distribution. In scenario two (what Marco proposes), the 20k simply don't watch it at all. In that case, the known demand for the show is 80k viewers total, all of which obtained the show legally. In scenario one, the content providers know there are 100k units of demand, 80k of which they are receiving revenue for - which implies 20% of the viewers want the show, but not for its current price/availability. Thus, they have a semi-accurate view of demand. In scenario two, the content providers only know there are 80k units of demand. They don't know that the other 20k users even exist, or are at all interested in the product. They have less usable information, and no change is enacted - if they don't know those 20k exist, their absence can't be noted. In this case, piracy provides an indicator of unfulfilled demand, whereas abstaining from piracy provides no feedback whatsoever. I think the concept of "protest via absence" in this situation isn't going to do anything useful.
  - pdonis 14y ago
    In this case, piracy provides an indicator of unfulfilled demand Only if the content providers actually treat it as an indicator of unfilled demand. They're not; they're treating it as an indicator of criminal behavior. If piracy is an indicator of unfilled demand, the correct response is to fill the demand by changing your method of distribution. It's not to sue people and try to buy ever more draconian government enforcement.
kstenerud 14y ago
I'm getting sick and tired of these "and if enough people do X, it will REALLY send a message" exhortations. People are lazy. The only way to really get them riled up is if they fear for their future. Otherwise the whole "if enough people do it" argument is moot. Want to make a difference? Hit people where it hurts. The legality and morality of how you do so is up to you, and is entirely dependent upon circumstance. Actually, here's an "if enough people do it" argument that actually works: If enough people pirate shows because they can't find them via legitimate sources in the way they want, they'll expose a market opportunity. Now get off your goddam high horse.
- SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
  Piracy is not just about watching things you don't own. It's also about watching things you HAVE purchased. I own a BluRay disc that I purchased new. I attempted to watch it on our "big screen," a projector with a DVI input but no HDMI. BZZZ. The fully legal software that came with my computer won't let me watch over a non-HDMI connection, and VLC can't handle this particular BluRay disc, even with the latest patches, extra files, and instructions I can find posted online. WHY can't I watch it that way? Because some idiot executive somewhere thinks that it will make it easier to circumvent the DRM on BluRay, and therefore they screw paying customers who don't have the newest equipment. Either that or it's Sony attempting to coerce people to upgrade their equipment so they can sell more TVs. Either way it's unethical, and a technological violation of Copyright fair use rights: I should be able to consume a product however I like. I bought it, I want to watch it, and there's no technical reason I shouldn't be able to -- it's entirely a business reason, either way. I'm not talking about a right necessarily ensconced in law (IANAL), but a moral right. I should also be able to rip and remix content under fair use. And in the case of BluRay, it may be illegal Copyright law exists (in the US at least) for the benefit of the PUBLIC, not the benefit of the IP owners. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me (or this TechDirt article which provides additional support [1]); it's pretty clear and on point about why we have IP laws. At the moment the laws are written to benefit IP holders and not the public. And it's that way simply because they have better lobbyists. What did I do to watch the movie? Put it on my tiny laptop screen to watch in front of my whole family, and accumulated a bit more hatred of the MPAA and constituent companies. Piracy is illegal, but what they are doing now should be as well. And the sad truth is that, when you really hate someone, and they've harmed you, it becomes easier to justify "harming" them. Especially when the "harm" doesn't register in any but an abstract manner. [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120407/00171418416/yes-copyrights-sole-purpose-is-to-benefit-public.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120407/00171418416/yes-co...
mmariani 14y ago
Marco has a point here. So, without further ado... Hey Netflix stop saying you're sorry for not being available in Italy and please sort it out already.
sigzero 14y ago
Nothing really "forces" people into piracy. They "choose" to do it.
lmm 14y ago
Realistically, many shows will never make it to my country. So my two choices, in fact, are: 1) Don't watch it. 2) Watch it. It's not that I'm cheap or impatient. It's not even that I'm lazy (though I am), unless you count not being willing to move to the US.
- chimi 14y ago
  Same is true for citizens living in the U.S. with regards to BBC and CBC shows like Dragon's Den. I really like to watch BBC docs, but I don't feel the need to go and download them illegally or anything. There's a lot of great stuff from all over the world that USA people can't watch. I really don't understand the entitled argument. I don't get why consumers feel they are owed the right to be entertained by any particular piece of digital media. Why not just watch something else? There's plenty of good stuff out there that can be obtained within the rules. Why not argue for all the legal options rather than the entitlement option?
  - lmm 14y ago
    Turn that around. I have a friend in America who wants to show me one of their shows, perhaps so we can talk about it afterwards. Why shouldn't she? Because it's illegal? Lots of things are, that's not persuasive in itself.
Ensorceled 14y ago
Just to be clear, there is no moral right to copyright. It's a legal artifact we created to advance society by rewarding artists and other creators for content created in the hope they'll create more/better stuff. However, it's now being used to hold back society, via actually preventing people from accessing the copyrighted content. Worse, copyright is being used to justify restrictions and prohibitions on new methods of distribution and entire new technologies. They may not be forcing people to copyright, but they have lost the moral standing to complain about it.
- GHFigs 14y ago
  it's now being used to hold back society, via actually preventing people from accessing the copyrighted content What are you referring to here? When I think of the piracy debate, I think of the things that are most commonly pirated, and I can't think of any examples from that set where society is being "held back" due to copyright on them.
  - Ensorceled 14y ago
    Well there are the obvious examples from the original article; content that is not available to some people. I think that arts advance society, so preventing some people from being exposed to some art because you "put in the vault" (as in Disney) or "don't want to sell it there" is holding us back. But, I was actually thinking of things like the VHS/Beta or Blu-Ray/HD DVD where copyright holders had undue influence on the process. Or how long it took music to be come digital and how it is still second rate because of DRM issues. Or weird stuff like HDMI requiring a security layer that puts additional technical challenges in place for engineers. Or, how the entire internet is twisted and malformed because of copyright laws including things like 3 strikes and you lose you internet access.
    - GHFigs 14y ago
      how the entire internet is twisted and malformed because of copyright laws I'm even more confused now than I was before. Thanks for trying.
- 14y ago
rythie 14y ago
You can do this, but unless you complain too, most companies are not going to notice for a long time. I suspect most of these companies still don't really understand the problem - for example I don't want to wait 6 months (in the UK) to see something that's already on TV in the US. I'd happily buy the series on DVD rather than wait. It's not about cost, but if I watch another way, no one who made it will get any money.
zdw 14y ago
The validity of Marco's argument rests on the fact that "if you just wait, you can get the media through a legit source". The problem is that there are things that never are going to eventually become available, for example: - Culture specific or non-mainstream programming - Reality TV from other countries Given that you're never going to even be given the option to pay for something, I think the argument breaks down.
- popup3 14y ago
  Nonsense. I'm a designer (say) that makes fancy clothes. I will only ever sell to famous Hollywood types, so they'll wear my clothes and make them trendy. Because I'd never sell them to you, do you have the right to take my fancy clothes without paying for them?
  - basseq 14y ago
    Or, better example: you make some popular clothes. Hollywood is wearing them and they are just THE RAGE. You'd like everyone to wear your clothes, but you think it's better to force people to buy them from your Santa Monica boutique that is only open on Sundays for an hour, and require a receipt from the parking garage to get in the door. People who have been to your store in the last month are allowed to order online, but only a month after you release a new line. A year after you release a new line, you make everything available online, but only if you buy the entire line at once. Another clothes-maker, noticing the popularity of your design and the growing frustration of your customers (and potential customers), creates clothes that look and feel exactly like yours, and make them available with free shipping online within a few hours of you making new designs. Your customers (and potential customers) who don't live in Santa Monica, or those who can't make it to your store during business hours, or those who take public transit—frustrated with the roadblocks you've put between your clothes are their wallets—start buying from the pop-up e-tailer. You complain about how this (and this alone) undermines your business. Your customers say you forced them into it. Neither of you is right.
    - popup3 14y ago
      That's fine. My point was simply that "they won't sell this to me" is an absurd justification for simply taking it.
rapala 14y ago
So I'm in the market, looking for the next season of my favorite show not yet aired here in Finland. Clearly I can't watch it from the TV. Netflix does not offer the show in here in Finland. What options do I have? Legitimate content providers have failed in a game called free market. Last time I heard free market was quite popular in the USA.
- chimi 14y ago
  Do without. Watch something else. Play cards. Go for a walk. Write some code. Start a side project. I don't understand why that's a hard concept to grasp. Really it just sounds kind of pathetic that you can't control yourself enough to simply not sit in a chair or whatever and watch this exact movie.
  - Buzaga 14y ago
    Mr Right tell me the secrets of the universe please
  - rapala 14y ago
    Do without. Season not sold. Watch something else. Season not sold. Play cards. Season not sold. It's not just about illegal downloading, it's about content providers not even trying to meet temporal demand. By the way, I don't even have a TV. Liked your ad hominem though.
  - moistgorilla 14y ago
    This argument is bad. First of all, piracy is not morally wrong, the morals of it are ambiguous, just like everything else. Second of all, it's not JUST ONE EXACT MOVIE. It's a plethora of films and shows and most people enjoy watching them once in a while... Nowadays, we have this thing called the internet where people can send information to others with minimal cost and effort. If a content provider does not wish to make money by conveniently providing me with entertainment I will oblige them by not giving them my money. I will still watch the movies I want to see though. Some of us are pathetic and don't like to wait when there is no reason to.
mark-r 14y ago
Be sure to read the follow-up: http://www.marco.org/2012/11/29/the-wrong-movement http://www.marco.org/2012/11/29/the-wrong-movement
mdip 14y ago
Most of my video consumption is through legal means, be it recording to my HTPC, or when I cannot, buying from Amazon Instant Videos (it fits my needs: iPad/Roku/Bluray player apps). When the video isn't available that way, you bet I pirate. If your business model relies on your customers to avoid activities that are convenient, easy, and get them exactly what they want and the only argument against not doing it is that to the consumer, the activity rises to the standard of "morally questionable" at worst, your business model needs to be fixed. Everything I pirate is a lost sale not because the pirated version was available, but because the legal version was not. And the pirated version will always be available. As the gatekeepers to the content, the movie/TV industries could provide an incredible product with an amazing customer experience and make money hand over fist. Doing that would push piracy off to only the "digital hoarders" who wouldn't be buying it anyway. But they aren't even getting the very basics. Start with giving consumers a way to pay for the product. I'm probably just a simpleton here, but to me the equivalent of their business model would be like walking into a grocery store and seeing a pile of fresh oranges with a sign that says "If you want one today, you'll have to steal it. Come by next Tuesday at 8:00 PM and we'll let you eat one while listening to a guy talk about how good bananas are for 4-6 minutes. We don't sell these". Not a perfect analogy since the act of stealing the orange doesn't make fewer oranges available, it just keeps the store from receiving more money. There's a TV show called "Ed" that I enjoyed growing up. Because of a licensing mess surrounding the background music in several episodes, it will likely never be released in any format. I'm a rabid fan. I'd pay $200 a season for a legal release in any format that I could playback somewhere. Instead, I've got these horrible SLP VHS to overly compressed MPEG versions that I recorded when it originally aired. I still watch them, but on my larger television the picture is nearly indistinguishable from a Jackson Pollock painting.
vlasta2 14y ago
Downloading TV shows is actually not illegal in many countries. Usually, only uploading is illegal. Morally, is is questionable. You can program your video-recorder (if you still have device like that) and let it record the TV show when it airs and watch it later. Or you can skip recording it yourself (because constantly recording everything is boring and wasting resources) and download it from piratebay. Is there really a difference? And if the show in question is inaccessible in your country, should you wait years for it? I would not.

27 points by DaNmarner 14y ago

This argument strikes me as missing the point. Piracy isn't a morals problem, it's an economics problem. Exhorting pirates to stop being pirates is likely to be about as effective as Don't Copy That Floppy or trying to fight drug cartels with Mr. Mackey and DARE -- they don't think what they're doing is wrong, or they don't care, and you're not going to change their minds. Which leaves you with an economic choice. Either copyright holders can have more availability and less piracy, or the other way around. Now maybe they decide they want less availability and more piracy -- maybe they think (almost certainly incorrectly) that that will make them more money. But if that's the case then you might as well go ahead and give up on the pirates, because that's the decision you've made: The decision to create a supply shortage and therefore a market incentive for piracy sufficient to create a critical mass of pirates and commercial enterprises reliant on piracy who, once established, will fight for their own continued existence. The best case scenario is that the outcome is less violent than the organized crime families created by prohibition or the drug cartels created by the War on Drugs. Or you can make sure everybody can get their fix from legitimate sources. Then piracy becomes less profitable because it has less of an advantage over purchasing, and some existing pirates discontinue their pirating, which reduces the strength of the pirate community, reduces the demand for illicit releases and thus the incentive to supply them, etc. But hey, it's your decision. Do whatever you want. If you want you can fight the market and then wail about morality when the inevitable economic consequences ensue. But I wouldn't.

GHFigs 14y ago
Piracy isn't a morals problem, it's an economics problem. I find it difficult to reconcile this with the near-constant moral tirades about it, such as those which claim piracy is not about people being cheap, or those which claim rightsholders are "forcing" people into piracy. One might also recognize those arguments as the ones this post is actually addressing on its way to (as you say) "missing the point".
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  I think we have to distinguish two arguments the pirates make. Some are saying that they intend to consume your content one way or another, and if you offer it in a convenient medium for an appropriate price then they'll buy it, and if not then they'll pirate it. That's an economic argument. You could call it an economic threat and try to make the moral argument that they shouldn't be doing that, but unless you can actually stop them in a just and cost-effective manner then you're just back to barking up the wrong tree if your goal is to actually accomplish anything. On the other hand, there are pirates who argue that if the content provider doesn't provide the content in a convenient format at an appropriate price then it's justifiable to pirate it (rather than just doing it whether it's justifiable or not). But that's not really an argument at all. It has to be justifiable because of something. And if it isn't then the pirates are in the same pit as the article: No reasoning and no plan. But maybe the pirate argues that copyright is unjustified whatsoever as a constraint on expression or what have you. Maybe they make an argument about the social contract, where copyright is granted to promote dissemination of new works, and works that are created but not sufficiently widely disseminated are a breach of the contract on the part of the copyright holder that justifies a breach on the part of the consumer. Maybe some other justification. But these are inherently economic and policy arguments with correspondingly clear plans of action: Abolish or reduce copyright, blunt the social cost of the copyright monopoly by allowing as fair use any use the copyright holder fails to supply to the market on reasonable terms, etc. The article doesn't choose any such premise to attack, it just says "no, dirty pirates are bad and piracy is wrong." That isn't rebutting anything. It doesn't solve anything. There is no plan of action. It's just "no" -- how is that good for anything?

zaccus 14y ago

Whether piracy is wrong or not is irrelevant. The fact is, as long as piracy is possible, people will do it. And it will continue to be possible for the foreseeable future. Complaining about it is as pointless as complaining about the weather. If it's hurting your business, that sucks. Adapt.

maurits 14y ago

This argument is, I think, completely correct, but also to a certain extend irrelevant. The real discussion should, in my opinion, be held on the supply side of digital content for it still seems to be crowded with companies who for better or worse can not or will not deal with the ramifications of our new networked world and keep dwelling in poor service whilst preaching that piracy is sinful. Companies, whom I might add not so long ago, were happy to push for legislation that would alter the way our basic democratic freedoms work, all in the name of copyright. I find anti-piracy crowd to be highly similar to politicians or policy-makers who advocate abstinence. In principle the argument is correct, you only need to forget that in the real world people don't quite work that way. Piracy, in the end to me, is not a moral problem, but a service problem. If you care to fix it, that is.

jamesmiller5 14y ago

I think there is an obligation to obey the wishes and rights of the content providers regardless of your respect for those obligations and whether or not those arrangements serve you fairly. To demand the ability to dictate terms of the arrangement and disregard the terms offered to you is enlightenment. (The special case of this is when an entity represses another with a monopoly, but that doesn't apply here as there is no single monopoly on all entertainment.) You may be the shows, musicians, entertainments, etc's target audience but you are not in the current target market. As others routinely point out, content providers need address this. It is a failure for them to not capitalize on an audience. The pragmatic solution is to sponsor organizations and entertainment that you are the both in the target audience and target market. Ad supported media, Humble Indie Bundle, Pay-what-you-want entertainment and Kickstarter projects are all ways you can easily support content on more respectable terms. By pirating, you really are letting content providers off the hook by not forcing them to compete with providers that you favor. There is an opportunity cost that you pay by not investing in media where you were the target market and those vested parties respect you. Edit: grammar

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yarrel 14y ago

"If you can’t watch something legally until it comes out on Netflix or whatever service you use, you have only two justifiable options: either wait, or don’t watch it." Or, alternatively, if you're going to anyway what's the problem again? Mass media is meant to be a convenient, efficient market. When it isn't the moral failing is not on the part of consumers.

waterlesscloud 14y ago
It's morally wrong to not sell you something?
sarvinc 14y ago
I'm not sure about moral failure but I agree that this is a hole in Marco's argument.
deleted 14y ago
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- lmm 14y ago
  But I do have access to it. It's right there on all those torrent sites. And morality is subjective. If enough people think that whether or not the creators are selling a TV show on itunes makes a difference to the morality of downloading it from other sources, then it does.
- ameister14 14y ago
  This is an interesting argument. Are you actually consuming anything? The act of consumption implies a physical loss; if the content still exists, what did you consume? In the examples of diamonds, Ferrari or a beach house, there is a limitation on possession. With content, no such limitation exists; it used to be simply a limitation on distribution. Now the distribution limits are gone.
- AnIrishDuck 14y ago
  Content is an entirely different "market" economically than the other examples you describe. In fact, content is one of a few class of goods with a high fixed cost for initial creation and near zero cost for incremental creation. Physical goods are generally characterized by linear supply and demand curves. Suppliers require higher and higher payments to produce more and more of a good, and consumers will buy less if something costs more. Here's a graph with classic linear supply-demand curves: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+2Q http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+2Q Note the intersection point: this is the equilibrium in microeconomics. It is a "compromise" reached by producers satisfied with their level of output, and consumers satisfied with their level of consumption. Content turns conventional microeconomics on its head. Now, suppliers have a large fixed cost that they can divide among all paying users. So the supply-demand curves look like this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+20+%2F+Q http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=P%3D20+-+Q%2C+P+%3D+20+... This situation is entirely different! For starters, there isn't one equilibrium, there's two. Which "equilibrium" will the market choose? This is a question that I haven't seen addressed in microecon before. I'm sure it's been addressed in economic research but unfortunately my exposure to economics is limited. I would appreciate if someone on HN with more knowledge could set me straight. Taking a step back to philosophical economics, content creation is a manifestation of the public good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good) problem. This reality has only been enhanced recently with vanishing incremental copy costs. Entitlement of content creators has satisfyingly solved the problem before, but with the rapid advance of technology I doubt it will do so in the future. EDIT: piracy is also well-studied in the abstract as the economic free-rider problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem)

addlepate 14y ago

Agreed. I do this, but I don't try to pretend that it's for some noble purpose. It's because I want to watch whatever and I'm not really interested in the arbitrary restrictions against that. I also happen to understand what's wrong with that. The attempt to paint this as some sort of moral crusade against Big Media is narcissism.

stephengillie 14y ago

Marketing campaigns make people "want very badly" what they can't have. Yet they can, and they don't even have to pay for it. At some level, the copyright issue is just a question of "wants" vs "needs" of humans. When does "wanting something badly enough" become "needing" it? Are we addicted to content -- are Big Media the dealers leeching off our habit?

debacle 14y ago
No.
jivatmanx 14y ago
Not everything copyrighted is a throwaway popular culture movie. If they were, perhaps it would be justifiable to completely eliminate public domain. Everything after 1923 is in copyright, and thus affects an era even before movies with recorded sound were even invented.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  I've read this several times and I'm still not able to understand what you mean. Part of your post seems like it's opposing mine, while another part is supporting mine...

sarvinc 14y ago

I'm not sure I see the point in arguing that piracy is or isn't justifiable. It's happening and it seems to be increasing. The sad fact is that it's easier to pirate than it is to pay. I pay for cable, HBO, Showtime, etc. but exclusively use a Mac Mini and torrent everything. Do I feel that what I'm doing is justifiable, no. Is it easier for me, yes.

Tycho 14y ago
Only if you're obsessed with watching something specific. If I wanted to watch a film, it's much easier to pick something off iTunes or Netflix than download a torrent. If they don't have exactly the thing I wanted to watch, I could go and pirate it... or, you know, just watch something else. I think lots of people are too obsessive about their media consumption for their own good. The prevalence of torrents is symptomatic.
- sarvinc 14y ago
  Sorry for the late reply. "Only if you're obsessed with watching something specific." I take issue with the word "obsessed" but I agree with you point. I'll even, try to, do you one better; if I want to watch something it's easier for me to turn on the T.V. "I think lots of people are too obsessive about their media consumption for their own good. The prevalence of torrents is symptomatic." I'm not sure I'm following you. If I do understand you then I think you're wrong here. It's a bit like saying people are too picky about the music they listen to; the Billboard's top 50 should be enough for them etc.

mhb 14y ago

Original essay: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/why-are-cable-companies-forcing-people-to-turn-to-piracy.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/why-are-cab...

sarvinc 14y ago
I'm not the original poster but I'm more interested in discussing Marco's post than the original. The original is attacking a straw-man.

fnbaptiste 14y ago

I recently ditched my cable company but not because I felt they were forcing me into piracy. I agree with this article, though I do still occasionally pirate television. Mostly I use Netflix on my XBox, which I pay for, but Canadian Netflix is pretty lame. I agree pirating is morally questionable, though I don't feel bad the slightest bit when I do it.

holograham 14y ago

By not watching the shows at all HBO (or other companies) cannot aggregate consumer demand for their show. If you are interested in watching a show and find it inconvenient then blatant pirating can actually help a cable company quantify the demand for the time and mediums of distribution. (yes those companies track aggregate pirating stats)

sarvinc 14y ago
I imagine piracy stats are probably more accurate then Nielsen ratings.
dlytle 14y ago
Thank you for saying what I came here to say. Let's look at two scenarios: They both involve a show that 100k people want to watch, but 20k of those people can't/won't watch it using the methods legally provided. (Fuzzy/simple math to illustrate the point.) In scenario one, those 20k pirate the show instead. This means that the known demand for the show is 100k viewers, 80k using legal distribution, 20k using illegal distribution. In scenario two (what Marco proposes), the 20k simply don't watch it at all. In that case, the known demand for the show is 80k viewers total, all of which obtained the show legally. In scenario one, the content providers know there are 100k units of demand, 80k of which they are receiving revenue for - which implies 20% of the viewers want the show, but not for its current price/availability. Thus, they have a semi-accurate view of demand. In scenario two, the content providers only know there are 80k units of demand. They don't know that the other 20k users even exist, or are at all interested in the product. They have less usable information, and no change is enacted - if they don't know those 20k exist, their absence can't be noted. In this case, piracy provides an indicator of unfulfilled demand, whereas abstaining from piracy provides no feedback whatsoever. I think the concept of "protest via absence" in this situation isn't going to do anything useful.
- pdonis 14y ago
  In this case, piracy provides an indicator of unfulfilled demand Only if the content providers actually treat it as an indicator of unfilled demand. They're not; they're treating it as an indicator of criminal behavior. If piracy is an indicator of unfilled demand, the correct response is to fill the demand by changing your method of distribution. It's not to sue people and try to buy ever more draconian government enforcement.

kstenerud 14y ago

I'm getting sick and tired of these "and if enough people do X, it will REALLY send a message" exhortations. People are lazy. The only way to really get them riled up is if they fear for their future. Otherwise the whole "if enough people do it" argument is moot. Want to make a difference? Hit people where it hurts. The legality and morality of how you do so is up to you, and is entirely dependent upon circumstance. Actually, here's an "if enough people do it" argument that actually works: If enough people pirate shows because they can't find them via legitimate sources in the way they want, they'll expose a market opportunity. Now get off your goddam high horse.

SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
Piracy is not just about watching things you don't own. It's also about watching things you HAVE purchased. I own a BluRay disc that I purchased new. I attempted to watch it on our "big screen," a projector with a DVI input but no HDMI. BZZZ. The fully legal software that came with my computer won't let me watch over a non-HDMI connection, and VLC can't handle this particular BluRay disc, even with the latest patches, extra files, and instructions I can find posted online. WHY can't I watch it that way? Because some idiot executive somewhere thinks that it will make it easier to circumvent the DRM on BluRay, and therefore they screw paying customers who don't have the newest equipment. Either that or it's Sony attempting to coerce people to upgrade their equipment so they can sell more TVs. Either way it's unethical, and a technological violation of Copyright fair use rights: I should be able to consume a product however I like. I bought it, I want to watch it, and there's no technical reason I shouldn't be able to -- it's entirely a business reason, either way. I'm not talking about a right necessarily ensconced in law (IANAL), but a moral right. I should also be able to rip and remix content under fair use. And in the case of BluRay, it may be illegal Copyright law exists (in the US at least) for the benefit of the PUBLIC, not the benefit of the IP owners. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me (or this TechDirt article which provides additional support [1]); it's pretty clear and on point about why we have IP laws. At the moment the laws are written to benefit IP holders and not the public. And it's that way simply because they have better lobbyists. What did I do to watch the movie? Put it on my tiny laptop screen to watch in front of my whole family, and accumulated a bit more hatred of the MPAA and constituent companies. Piracy is illegal, but what they are doing now should be as well. And the sad truth is that, when you really hate someone, and they've harmed you, it becomes easier to justify "harming" them. Especially when the "harm" doesn't register in any but an abstract manner. [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120407/00171418416/yes-copyrights-sole-purpose-is-to-benefit-public.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120407/00171418416/yes-co...

mmariani 14y ago

Marco has a point here. So, without further ado... Hey Netflix stop saying you're sorry for not being available in Italy and please sort it out already.

sigzero 14y ago

Nothing really "forces" people into piracy. They "choose" to do it.

lmm 14y ago

Realistically, many shows will never make it to my country. So my two choices, in fact, are: 1) Don't watch it. 2) Watch it. It's not that I'm cheap or impatient. It's not even that I'm lazy (though I am), unless you count not being willing to move to the US.

chimi 14y ago
Same is true for citizens living in the U.S. with regards to BBC and CBC shows like Dragon's Den. I really like to watch BBC docs, but I don't feel the need to go and download them illegally or anything. There's a lot of great stuff from all over the world that USA people can't watch. I really don't understand the entitled argument. I don't get why consumers feel they are owed the right to be entertained by any particular piece of digital media. Why not just watch something else? There's plenty of good stuff out there that can be obtained within the rules. Why not argue for all the legal options rather than the entitlement option?
- lmm 14y ago
  Turn that around. I have a friend in America who wants to show me one of their shows, perhaps so we can talk about it afterwards. Why shouldn't she? Because it's illegal? Lots of things are, that's not persuasive in itself.

Ensorceled 14y ago

Just to be clear, there is no moral right to copyright. It's a legal artifact we created to advance society by rewarding artists and other creators for content created in the hope they'll create more/better stuff. However, it's now being used to hold back society, via actually preventing people from accessing the copyrighted content. Worse, copyright is being used to justify restrictions and prohibitions on new methods of distribution and entire new technologies. They may not be forcing people to copyright, but they have lost the moral standing to complain about it.

GHFigs 14y ago
it's now being used to hold back society, via actually preventing people from accessing the copyrighted content What are you referring to here? When I think of the piracy debate, I think of the things that are most commonly pirated, and I can't think of any examples from that set where society is being "held back" due to copyright on them.
- Ensorceled 14y ago
  Well there are the obvious examples from the original article; content that is not available to some people. I think that arts advance society, so preventing some people from being exposed to some art because you "put in the vault" (as in Disney) or "don't want to sell it there" is holding us back. But, I was actually thinking of things like the VHS/Beta or Blu-Ray/HD DVD where copyright holders had undue influence on the process. Or how long it took music to be come digital and how it is still second rate because of DRM issues. Or weird stuff like HDMI requiring a security layer that puts additional technical challenges in place for engineers. Or, how the entire internet is twisted and malformed because of copyright laws including things like 3 strikes and you lose you internet access.
  - GHFigs 14y ago
    how the entire internet is twisted and malformed because of copyright laws I'm even more confused now than I was before. Thanks for trying.
14y ago

rythie 14y ago

You can do this, but unless you complain too, most companies are not going to notice for a long time. I suspect most of these companies still don't really understand the problem - for example I don't want to wait 6 months (in the UK) to see something that's already on TV in the US. I'd happily buy the series on DVD rather than wait. It's not about cost, but if I watch another way, no one who made it will get any money.

zdw 14y ago

The validity of Marco's argument rests on the fact that "if you just wait, you can get the media through a legit source". The problem is that there are things that never are going to eventually become available, for example: - Culture specific or non-mainstream programming - Reality TV from other countries Given that you're never going to even be given the option to pay for something, I think the argument breaks down.

popup3 14y ago
Nonsense. I'm a designer (say) that makes fancy clothes. I will only ever sell to famous Hollywood types, so they'll wear my clothes and make them trendy. Because I'd never sell them to you, do you have the right to take my fancy clothes without paying for them?
- basseq 14y ago
  Or, better example: you make some popular clothes. Hollywood is wearing them and they are just THE RAGE. You'd like everyone to wear your clothes, but you think it's better to force people to buy them from your Santa Monica boutique that is only open on Sundays for an hour, and require a receipt from the parking garage to get in the door. People who have been to your store in the last month are allowed to order online, but only a month after you release a new line. A year after you release a new line, you make everything available online, but only if you buy the entire line at once. Another clothes-maker, noticing the popularity of your design and the growing frustration of your customers (and potential customers), creates clothes that look and feel exactly like yours, and make them available with free shipping online within a few hours of you making new designs. Your customers (and potential customers) who don't live in Santa Monica, or those who can't make it to your store during business hours, or those who take public transit—frustrated with the roadblocks you've put between your clothes are their wallets—start buying from the pop-up e-tailer. You complain about how this (and this alone) undermines your business. Your customers say you forced them into it. Neither of you is right.
  - popup3 14y ago
    That's fine. My point was simply that "they won't sell this to me" is an absurd justification for simply taking it.

rapala 14y ago

So I'm in the market, looking for the next season of my favorite show not yet aired here in Finland. Clearly I can't watch it from the TV. Netflix does not offer the show in here in Finland. What options do I have? Legitimate content providers have failed in a game called free market. Last time I heard free market was quite popular in the USA.

chimi 14y ago
Do without. Watch something else. Play cards. Go for a walk. Write some code. Start a side project. I don't understand why that's a hard concept to grasp. Really it just sounds kind of pathetic that you can't control yourself enough to simply not sit in a chair or whatever and watch this exact movie.
- Buzaga 14y ago
  Mr Right tell me the secrets of the universe please
- rapala 14y ago
  Do without. Season not sold. Watch something else. Season not sold. Play cards. Season not sold. It's not just about illegal downloading, it's about content providers not even trying to meet temporal demand. By the way, I don't even have a TV. Liked your ad hominem though.
- moistgorilla 14y ago
  This argument is bad. First of all, piracy is not morally wrong, the morals of it are ambiguous, just like everything else. Second of all, it's not JUST ONE EXACT MOVIE. It's a plethora of films and shows and most people enjoy watching them once in a while... Nowadays, we have this thing called the internet where people can send information to others with minimal cost and effort. If a content provider does not wish to make money by conveniently providing me with entertainment I will oblige them by not giving them my money. I will still watch the movies I want to see though. Some of us are pathetic and don't like to wait when there is no reason to.

mark-r 14y ago

Be sure to read the follow-up: http://www.marco.org/2012/11/29/the-wrong-movement http://www.marco.org/2012/11/29/the-wrong-movement

mdip 14y ago

Most of my video consumption is through legal means, be it recording to my HTPC, or when I cannot, buying from Amazon Instant Videos (it fits my needs: iPad/Roku/Bluray player apps). When the video isn't available that way, you bet I pirate. If your business model relies on your customers to avoid activities that are convenient, easy, and get them exactly what they want and the only argument against not doing it is that to the consumer, the activity rises to the standard of "morally questionable" at worst, your business model needs to be fixed. Everything I pirate is a lost sale not because the pirated version was available, but because the legal version was not. And the pirated version will always be available. As the gatekeepers to the content, the movie/TV industries could provide an incredible product with an amazing customer experience and make money hand over fist. Doing that would push piracy off to only the "digital hoarders" who wouldn't be buying it anyway. But they aren't even getting the very basics. Start with giving consumers a way to pay for the product. I'm probably just a simpleton here, but to me the equivalent of their business model would be like walking into a grocery store and seeing a pile of fresh oranges with a sign that says "If you want one today, you'll have to steal it. Come by next Tuesday at 8:00 PM and we'll let you eat one while listening to a guy talk about how good bananas are for 4-6 minutes. We don't sell these". Not a perfect analogy since the act of stealing the orange doesn't make fewer oranges available, it just keeps the store from receiving more money. There's a TV show called "Ed" that I enjoyed growing up. Because of a licensing mess surrounding the background music in several episodes, it will likely never be released in any format. I'm a rabid fan. I'd pay $200 a season for a legal release in any format that I could playback somewhere. Instead, I've got these horrible SLP VHS to overly compressed MPEG versions that I recorded when it originally aired. I still watch them, but on my larger television the picture is nearly indistinguishable from a Jackson Pollock painting.

vlasta2 14y ago

Downloading TV shows is actually not illegal in many countries. Usually, only uploading is illegal. Morally, is is questionable. You can program your video-recorder (if you still have device like that) and let it record the TV show when it airs and watch it later. Or you can skip recording it yourself (because constantly recording everything is boring and wasting resources) and download it from piratebay. Is there really a difference? And if the show in question is inaccessible in your country, should you wait years for it? I would not.