9 ms·

Organic foods are not healthier or pesticide free

40 points by fsflover 4mo ago

19skitsch 4mo ago
Making me not wanna eat anything lol… In seriousness does this mean I’m ok to buy the regular broccoli at the store next time?
- MostlyStable 4mo ago
  You do you. Me personally? I never buy organic if I can avoid it, to the point of, in the very very rare cases when organic is cheaper, I have still sometimes bought conventional.
  - loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
    Why tho?
    - MostlyStable 4mo ago
      Mostly a principled (although admittedly near totally useless) stand against exactly the kind of issue talked about in this article. The organic label, as it is used in the US, is basically BS marketing bordering on misinformation. I prefer that my one, tiny, consumer signal goes in the direction of not supporting that BS marketing label.
- fsflover 4mo ago
  It seems so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception
- leephillips 4mo ago
  Yes.
- barcoder 4mo ago
  Broccoli seems to be covered in something that is heat sensitive. I like to wash with boiling water.
wazoox 4mo ago
There is a long-lasting study (more than 10 years) on a huge French cohort (more than 100k) that proves exactly the opposite : people who eat mostly organic food have less cancer and several other diseases. This is straight disinformation.
- loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
  Nice! Link?
  - wazoox 4mo ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34661620/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34661620/
  - lbrito 4mo ago
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2707948 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... Results Among 68 946 participants (78.0% female; mean [SD] age at baseline, 44.2 [14.5] years), 1340 first incident cancer cases were identified during follow-up, with the most prevalent being 459 breast cancers, 180 prostate cancers, 135 skin cancers, 99 colorectal cancers, 47 non-Hodgkin lymphomas, and 15 other lymphomas. High organic food scores were inversely associated with the overall risk of cancer (hazard ratio for quartile 4 vs quartile 1, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.63-0.88; P for trend = .001; absolute risk reduction, 0.6%; hazard ratio for a 5-point increase, 0.92; 95% CI, 0.88-0.96). Conclusions and Relevance A higher frequency of organic food consumption was associated with a reduced risk of cancer. If these findings are confirmed, further research is necessary to determine the underlying factors involved in this association.
    - fsflover 4mo ago
      > High organic food scores were inversely associated with the overall risk of cancer So rich people who can afford expensive food get cancer less often.
      - deleted 4mo ago
oulipo2 4mo ago
That's completely false. It's been proven that, even though they aren't always entirely pesticide free because of pesticide remaining in soil / water / nearby fields that have been spread, their levels are much lower
- fsflover 4mo ago
  > It's been proven You can't just say this without a link.
  - oulipo2 4mo ago
    There are studies in France that showed it. It's been widely discussed here because of the opposition of the population to the pro-pesticide agro-industrial lobbies.
  - Madmallard 4mo ago
    It's common knowledge. Do more than 5 minutes of research into what it takes to earn a USDA sticker as well as the ingredients and administration practices of conventional pesticides.
50208 4mo ago
If we accepted what this article states as true (big if, seems mostly hyperbolic) ... it also supposes that the only important thing about organic foods is what your body gets out of it. No consideration given to the land, the inputs, the workers, the surrounding environment. Not much logic to ImunoLogic.
- phainopepla2 4mo ago
  This is very true. My parents were organic farmers back before there was any legal or official designation, and keeping synthetic pesticides out of the soil and watershed was a bigger motivation for them than fear of eating conventionally grown food. I think as organic food became more mainstream it also became more about an individual's health and less about larger environmental and social concerns, but those concerns are at the heart of the original organic movement.
- F3nd0 4mo ago
  The article does contain sections on climate and ecology, even if the focus is largely on pesticides.
sigmoid10 4mo ago
The USDA only permits very specific and highly restricted pest control substances to be used under the "organic" label [1]. So yes, they may still use pesticides, but they are miles away from the usual pesticides used in conventional farming. That stuff will literally kill you if you aren't careful [2]. Beware that there is a lot of misinformation out there targeting anything that dares to go against the conventional farming industry. Of course not all eco hippie alternatives are great, but the usual stuff out there is without question outright terrible in many cases. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/su... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraquat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraquat
- oulipo2 4mo ago
  Exactly. The OP article is pure nonsense
  - superkuh 4mo ago
    The claim in the article is that there's nothing intrinsically safer about the "organic" pesticides. And that just because "organic" labeled pesticides can be found as is in nature doesn't mean they are safer. Many of the "organic" pesticides, copper sulfate, rotenone, and nicicotine sulfate actually require more per unit area farmed while at the same time having a lower LD50 than the other non-organic pesticides. What do you find is nonsense about this? Did you not read the article and think it was about "pesticides" vs "no pesticides"? It is actually about how the organic label often results in farmers using more pesticides.
    - OutOfHere 4mo ago
      > Many of the "organic" pesticides, copper sulfate, rotenone, and nicicotine sulfate That's highly misleading: 1. Copper sulfate is required to be used such that copper accumulation is limited in the soil. [1] 2. Rotenone [2][3] and nicotine sulfate [3] are not allowed as USDA Organic pesticides. Really, superkuh, for a user like you, your comment is embarrassing. [1] https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/pesticide-articles/materials-allowed-organic-disease-management https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/pesticide-articles/mat... [2] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/national-organic-program-national-list-allowed-and-prohibited-substances-crops https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/national-organic-... [3] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd/section-205.602 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/su...
TimTheTinker 4mo ago
What about food produced in Europe? We have an Italian restaurant in my Tennessee town that imports all of its ingredients from Italy. I know several people who are otherwise gluten-intolerant but can eat anything there with no trouble. All of the food issues we're suffering from in the US -- celiac's disease, food allergies, gluten intolerance, dairy intolerance -- are relatively rare in Europe.
- jongjong 4mo ago
  The chemical contaminant problem is huge. The pressure to always lower food production costs has forced the industry to accept tradeoffs without considering the costs. The tradeoffs are at every step of the chain and if you ask anyone in the production chain about a specific contaminant, they will likely wave it off "no big deal, it's harmless" but by the time you go through the entire supply chain, this would accumulate to large numbers of contaminants from many different sources with complex interactions. It's interesting that it works like fish and mercury contamination. Big fish accumulate mercury in higher concentrations than little fish. The little fish accumulate small amount over certain periods and are eaten by big fish which rapidly accumulate the chemical. The higher in the food chain the fish, the more mercury. It's a parallel with the degree of food processing. The more processed the food, the more contaminants. You could characterize it as a general problem that humans and the planet are facing now. We have a problem with long chains. We are neglecting their costs. Even in the software industry, as a software developer, long chains of logic introduce their own problems with slight side effects at every stage accumulating into problematic unexpected behaviors and adding significant maintenance burdens. Guess what AI coding is contributing to? Longer chains of logic to solve the same problem. At some point we have to put our foot down and reject unnecessary complexity and reject minor conveniences. There is too much fake convenience and fake safety which actually create much bigger inconveniences and hazards in the long run. Everything in our society seems to be mirroring the debt-based system upon which our society is founded. Everything works like a debt which will have to be repaid later, with interest.
- skuzye 4mo ago
  Not sure about the other stuff but food allergies in Europe are very high as well https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1939455125001000 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193945512.... It seems to be linked with economic development. Anecdotally, we have no history of food allergies in the family but my daughter has severe sesame allergy, milk, egg and nuts allergy. We are from South America but live in the UK.
andrewmutz 4mo ago
The worst part of organic produce is that it is worse on two things that matter a lot: climate change and biodiversity. Most of the negative impact of agriculture on the climate and on biodiversity happens when we convert an acre of land from its natural state to agricultural use. This is much worse for the environment than the presence of pesticides. Organic produce consistently takes about 20% more land to produce the same amount of food. As a result, choosing organic over traditional means choosing worse outcomes for the climate and worse for biodiversity.
- veidelis 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
- nlfire 4mo ago
  The vast majority of agricultural land is used for meat production. I hear you if you are on an carnivore organic keto diet. Myself, I eat vegan most of the time, but I'm not strict by any measure. The extra land use from my organic purchases is more than offset by eating lower on the food chain.
- vitalyan1234 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - jraph 4mo ago
    Hey, at least you won't find any worm in there! It should be fine if you remove the first layer. And the other layers as well after that one. If you throw away the whole thing it should be completely safe for you anyway. If you handle your trash carefully, with gloves and a mask, that is.
- npunt 4mo ago
  This argument at its logical extreme would be that we should grow slop in vats because that takes less land to feed people. Agree that climate and biodiversity are two very important factors, but there's others. Health effects (e.g. quality-adjusted life years) being one, soil health & resilience another. Monocropping pesticide-laden foods is not some ideal state.
tartoran 4mo ago
Organic foods could be a bit tastier (as opposed tasteless and bland) but that's not always the case. But when that's the case it's a no brainer to me what to buy.
shanekandy 4mo ago
Does no one think this is a little strange and suspicious? This blog post from 2024 is citing another blog post that cites a survey with a sample of 813 people in the UK, but without an actual link to the survey. And while dancing around with other things is of course a pro glyphosate argument. I think there is a difference between avoiding all pesticides, and say avoiding glyphosate, which is why I prefer the buy the organically grown version or some vegetables. If anyone wants to chow down on glyphosate, knock yourself out, but so what if other people are paying a little more to not. That's their prerogative. Everyone can have what they want. What is this blog even arguing?
- eager_learner 4mo ago
  Exactly. Also, it doesn't even mention the fact that when a crop becomes dis-organic (or unorganic), it's no longer food since the taste and texture changes somewhat. The change of taste is a good indicator that you're eating poison. Or at least, it has no health benefits. Organic crops may have pesticides too, but at least they are still health-giving food that may counter some of the effects of pesticides. With inorganic, you are hurt twice: the chemicals and then the food itself offers no benefits.
  - tpush 4mo ago
    Absolute nonsense.
    - eager_learner 4mo ago
      That you are using ad hominem (indirectly) proves I am right-- otherwise you would have used counter-arguments with details.
giacomoforte 4mo ago
I don't think using the median lethal dose of toxicity is a good metric to compare pesticides.
dingdingdang 4mo ago
I do find it fascinating how blatantly people lie about things, the article mentions "Organic farming uses 84% more land for the same yield, but yields are 55% lower by area than conventional." yes, and that is the exact signature indicating that organic produce receives less harsh chemicals and is less exploitive of the ecosystem than "regular" produce. Not worth the read, it's simply anti-organic propaganda. Note: I'm not personally religious about organic/not-organic but neither do I enjoy overt misinformation campaigns.
themafia 4mo ago
> and was borne out of consumer demand and misinformation. So there was absolutely no reliable data they used? It was _entirely_ misinformation? That seems dubious. > Most people have been misled to believe that organic is superior and that’s not your fault I'd like fewer cancer causing chemicals sprayed onto or around my food. I'm not sure that's "superior" but it seems "more reasonable than not." > in order to drive people to purchase organic produce Not exactly a "hard sell" is it? > All pesticides are toxic And "toxic" defines a _wide_ range of features and outcomes, does it not? Now who's fear mongering? > Another study making claims about glyphosate in urine, that the median glyphosate levels in organic food consumers and individuals with known exposure are essentially identical (390 vs 400 parts per trillion, respectively). So corporate farming is so onerous that there's no way to avoid glyphosate cross contamination? I found this whole thing to be a very goofy analysis that seems preoccupied with punching down on some imagined conspiratorial enemy.
perplex 4mo ago
I think food quality is real and the same foods from certain stores taste better and make me feel better than from other stores. So I usually pick my food based on brand/store rather than organic labeling. A lot of what I buy happens to be organic, but I eat it because it tastes good, not because of the label. I do think organic bananas taste better than non-organic. Same with meat and eggs, but any high-quality meat is great, organic or not. For flour, pasta, and cereal, I feel like it comes down to the brand, not whether it's organic. Maybe food quality is more complex than what an organic label actually measures.
- littlestymaar 4mo ago
  Maybe it's just because reducing treatment makes produces more fragile, which means by buying organic you end up eating fresher stuff just because it couldn't withstand the logistic that heavily treated food endure.
warumdarum 4mo ago
Organic is also more contaminated with fungicide toxins resulting in certain cancer rates beeing higher in the "organic" crowd and many orgsnic farmer fields hugging connventional farfields to get at least some fungicides
- jraph 4mo ago
  Do you have a source for this?
woadwarrior01 4mo ago
The author of the piece seems to have some conflict of interest WRT organic farming. Here's a two year old LinkedIn post[1] where she claims to have been a keynote speaker at the Croplife America Annual Meeting. Headline on the Croplife America website[2] is: "We Represent America's Pesticide Industry". I rest my case. :) [1]: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andrea-love-phd_scientistlife-scicomm-medicalaffairs-activity-7108433473995960320-S9Yy https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andrea-love-phd_scientistlife... [2]: https://croplifeamerica.org/ https://croplifeamerica.org/
- superkuh 4mo ago
  The point of this article is that "organic" farming uses organic pesticides. And more of them are required than when using synthetic pesticides. But I suppose it is the wrong pesticides for the industry lobby (except for copper sulfate?) and that's why they'd have someone write up this article. Not because of the true statements about the synthetic pesticides being safer (lower LD50, lower mass needing to be applied, etc). Both "sides" that are involved (organic pesticides vs non-organic pesticides) here are arguing for pesticide use in practice.
  - NonHyloMorph 4mo ago
    It's written in bad faith in my opinion and also factually wrong in multiple places. Nicotine sulfate which the srticle explicitly discusses as one of the "natural" substances, used in organic farming (i assune the context is US specifix here) is a) not the natural occuring nicotine of e.g. tobacco plants and b) stictly prohibihed for all types of agriculture, organic or notchemically modified nix. And the use of the LD50 toxicity as sole metric is laughable: caring about not being exposed to carcinogenic substances, would not even make sense, when everythink that is harmful would also be accordingly toxic in the sense of an LD50 dose.
    - superkuh 4mo ago
      It is good to known many of these toxic organic pesticides are banned in the USA. I do wonder about the large fraction of the produce in US grocer's stores that comes from other countries though.
ezbie 4mo ago
Not saying this lad is lying, vut it would helpnif they added at least the sources to their claims
erelong 4mo ago
> All y aren't x, therefore z better than y Some kind of fallacious argument in this form
F3nd0 4mo ago
Even assuming it’s right, I don’t like this article. Not because of the claims it makes, but rather because of the implications it makes—or doesn’t care to avoid. Organic farming is essentially the idea of farming more ‘in line with nature’, and is concretely defined and regulated by different laws in different places. If these regulations aren’t yielding the expected results, it may be a good idea to drop or improve them. What I find dangerous, though, is the easily acquirable belief that the idea of organic farming is deceptive and worthless. Certain practices present in conventional farming are known to be problematic and it’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned and seek to avoid them. Organic farming can miss the goal, but my understanding is that it’s aiming in the right direction. Therefore, I think a more responsible conclusion to draw would be ‘today’s organic farming isn’t what it should be’, not just the plain ‘organic foods are not superior’. In this form, I fear the message does far more harm than good.
skywhopper 4mo ago
2024. I don’t think “our food is safer than ever before” is true anymore in the United States.
- OutOfHere 4mo ago
  In non-Organic produce, we literally use sewage mulch as a fertilizer which is PFAS and toxin ridden. It doesn't get much more poisonous than this.
jraph 4mo ago
I've read the same kind of argumentative Mille-feuille garbage in French already. You have to think about who is motivated to write this kind of stuff. Invariably, it's people selling conventional pesticides or people paid by such people. The lobbying is strong, contrary to the arguments. This is actually a very good sign, these despicable people feel threatened. I don't know the rules of the organic label in the US, here in Europe it's not perfect, and yeah, thhere are still pesticides including some bad stuff like copper sulfates that are allowed, and the level of care absolutely vary from ome producer to another but it's still better than conventional products for pretty much everything except for the price if you don't factor in the cost of the damage done to the environment and yourself. This kind of misinformation needs to be firmly fought back. They want to sell glyphosate, which they try to trick us into thinking it's not bad, that's the full extent of it. It's bad, we are better off without it, that's it, end of the story.
skyberrys 4mo ago
Farmers market foods overall taste better. When I talk to the farmers frequently they will tell me they don't pay to be certified organic, but they use no sprays and fertilizer is organic (things like worm compost). They also do tend to use a lot of plastic, which I worry about but less than pesticides.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
jaredcwhite 4mo ago
Every few years, I hear something like this. And every time, I wonder who is going to believe them, because almost without exception when I purchase organic produce it tastes noticeably better. Perhaps one could argue "well, that's not because it's certified organic, it's because it's a smaller farm that uses these other crop-growing techniques blah blah blah". OK. Irrelevant. The point is, when I buy conventional produce, and then I buy organic produce, the organic stuff is clearly higher quality. Even better? Go to a farmers market and buy directly from the source.
- fsflover 4mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception
KevinMS 4mo ago
I don't really believe in "organic foods" but I believe they sometimes are higher quality because their consumers expect more from them, although at a higher price. Just look at supermarket tomatos for example.
ofrzeta 4mo ago
I will provide one example where organic food is healthier: nitrate levels in organic spinach are lower. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25850811/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25850811/ Apart from that I buy organic because it's also better for the environment. Among other things also due to lower nitrate levels in the groundwater. Which is consistently above the maximum allowed concentration in Germany for years. https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/nitrate-in-groundwater-8th-eap https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/nitrate-in-...

40 points by fsflover 4mo ago

Making me not wanna eat anything lol… In seriousness does this mean I’m ok to buy the regular broccoli at the store next time?

MostlyStable 4mo ago
You do you. Me personally? I never buy organic if I can avoid it, to the point of, in the very very rare cases when organic is cheaper, I have still sometimes bought conventional.
- loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
  Why tho?
  - MostlyStable 4mo ago
    Mostly a principled (although admittedly near totally useless) stand against exactly the kind of issue talked about in this article. The organic label, as it is used in the US, is basically BS marketing bordering on misinformation. I prefer that my one, tiny, consumer signal goes in the direction of not supporting that BS marketing label.
fsflover 4mo ago
It seems so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception
leephillips 4mo ago
Yes.
barcoder 4mo ago
Broccoli seems to be covered in something that is heat sensitive. I like to wash with boiling water.

wazoox 4mo ago

There is a long-lasting study (more than 10 years) on a huge French cohort (more than 100k) that proves exactly the opposite : people who eat mostly organic food have less cancer and several other diseases. This is straight disinformation.

loloquwowndueo 4mo ago
Nice! Link?
- wazoox 4mo ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34661620/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34661620/
- lbrito 4mo ago
  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2707948 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... Results Among 68 946 participants (78.0% female; mean [SD] age at baseline, 44.2 [14.5] years), 1340 first incident cancer cases were identified during follow-up, with the most prevalent being 459 breast cancers, 180 prostate cancers, 135 skin cancers, 99 colorectal cancers, 47 non-Hodgkin lymphomas, and 15 other lymphomas. High organic food scores were inversely associated with the overall risk of cancer (hazard ratio for quartile 4 vs quartile 1, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.63-0.88; P for trend = .001; absolute risk reduction, 0.6%; hazard ratio for a 5-point increase, 0.92; 95% CI, 0.88-0.96). Conclusions and Relevance A higher frequency of organic food consumption was associated with a reduced risk of cancer. If these findings are confirmed, further research is necessary to determine the underlying factors involved in this association.
  - fsflover 4mo ago
    > High organic food scores were inversely associated with the overall risk of cancer So rich people who can afford expensive food get cancer less often.
    - deleted 4mo ago

oulipo2 4mo ago

That's completely false. It's been proven that, even though they aren't always entirely pesticide free because of pesticide remaining in soil / water / nearby fields that have been spread, their levels are much lower

fsflover 4mo ago
> It's been proven You can't just say this without a link.
- oulipo2 4mo ago
  There are studies in France that showed it. It's been widely discussed here because of the opposition of the population to the pro-pesticide agro-industrial lobbies.
- Madmallard 4mo ago
  It's common knowledge. Do more than 5 minutes of research into what it takes to earn a USDA sticker as well as the ingredients and administration practices of conventional pesticides.

50208 4mo ago

If we accepted what this article states as true (big if, seems mostly hyperbolic) ... it also supposes that the only important thing about organic foods is what your body gets out of it. No consideration given to the land, the inputs, the workers, the surrounding environment. Not much logic to ImunoLogic.

phainopepla2 4mo ago
This is very true. My parents were organic farmers back before there was any legal or official designation, and keeping synthetic pesticides out of the soil and watershed was a bigger motivation for them than fear of eating conventionally grown food. I think as organic food became more mainstream it also became more about an individual's health and less about larger environmental and social concerns, but those concerns are at the heart of the original organic movement.
F3nd0 4mo ago
The article does contain sections on climate and ecology, even if the focus is largely on pesticides.

sigmoid10 4mo ago

The USDA only permits very specific and highly restricted pest control substances to be used under the "organic" label [1]. So yes, they may still use pesticides, but they are miles away from the usual pesticides used in conventional farming. That stuff will literally kill you if you aren't careful [2]. Beware that there is a lot of misinformation out there targeting anything that dares to go against the conventional farming industry. Of course not all eco hippie alternatives are great, but the usual stuff out there is without question outright terrible in many cases. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/su... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraquat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraquat

oulipo2 4mo ago
Exactly. The OP article is pure nonsense
- superkuh 4mo ago
  The claim in the article is that there's nothing intrinsically safer about the "organic" pesticides. And that just because "organic" labeled pesticides can be found as is in nature doesn't mean they are safer. Many of the "organic" pesticides, copper sulfate, rotenone, and nicicotine sulfate actually require more per unit area farmed while at the same time having a lower LD50 than the other non-organic pesticides. What do you find is nonsense about this? Did you not read the article and think it was about "pesticides" vs "no pesticides"? It is actually about how the organic label often results in farmers using more pesticides.
  - OutOfHere 4mo ago
    > Many of the "organic" pesticides, copper sulfate, rotenone, and nicicotine sulfate That's highly misleading: 1. Copper sulfate is required to be used such that copper accumulation is limited in the soil. [1] 2. Rotenone [2][3] and nicotine sulfate [3] are not allowed as USDA Organic pesticides. Really, superkuh, for a user like you, your comment is embarrassing. [1] https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/pesticide-articles/materials-allowed-organic-disease-management https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/pesticide-articles/mat... [2] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/national-organic-program-national-list-allowed-and-prohibited-substances-crops https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/national-organic-... [3] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-205/subpart-G/subject-group-ECFR0ebc5d139b750cd/section-205.602 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-7/subtitle-B/chapter-I/su...

TimTheTinker 4mo ago

What about food produced in Europe? We have an Italian restaurant in my Tennessee town that imports all of its ingredients from Italy. I know several people who are otherwise gluten-intolerant but can eat anything there with no trouble. All of the food issues we're suffering from in the US -- celiac's disease, food allergies, gluten intolerance, dairy intolerance -- are relatively rare in Europe.

jongjong 4mo ago
The chemical contaminant problem is huge. The pressure to always lower food production costs has forced the industry to accept tradeoffs without considering the costs. The tradeoffs are at every step of the chain and if you ask anyone in the production chain about a specific contaminant, they will likely wave it off "no big deal, it's harmless" but by the time you go through the entire supply chain, this would accumulate to large numbers of contaminants from many different sources with complex interactions. It's interesting that it works like fish and mercury contamination. Big fish accumulate mercury in higher concentrations than little fish. The little fish accumulate small amount over certain periods and are eaten by big fish which rapidly accumulate the chemical. The higher in the food chain the fish, the more mercury. It's a parallel with the degree of food processing. The more processed the food, the more contaminants. You could characterize it as a general problem that humans and the planet are facing now. We have a problem with long chains. We are neglecting their costs. Even in the software industry, as a software developer, long chains of logic introduce their own problems with slight side effects at every stage accumulating into problematic unexpected behaviors and adding significant maintenance burdens. Guess what AI coding is contributing to? Longer chains of logic to solve the same problem. At some point we have to put our foot down and reject unnecessary complexity and reject minor conveniences. There is too much fake convenience and fake safety which actually create much bigger inconveniences and hazards in the long run. Everything in our society seems to be mirroring the debt-based system upon which our society is founded. Everything works like a debt which will have to be repaid later, with interest.
skuzye 4mo ago
Not sure about the other stuff but food allergies in Europe are very high as well https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1939455125001000 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193945512.... It seems to be linked with economic development. Anecdotally, we have no history of food allergies in the family but my daughter has severe sesame allergy, milk, egg and nuts allergy. We are from South America but live in the UK.

andrewmutz 4mo ago

The worst part of organic produce is that it is worse on two things that matter a lot: climate change and biodiversity. Most of the negative impact of agriculture on the climate and on biodiversity happens when we convert an acre of land from its natural state to agricultural use. This is much worse for the environment than the presence of pesticides. Organic produce consistently takes about 20% more land to produce the same amount of food. As a result, choosing organic over traditional means choosing worse outcomes for the climate and worse for biodiversity.

veidelis 4mo ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
nlfire 4mo ago
The vast majority of agricultural land is used for meat production. I hear you if you are on an carnivore organic keto diet. Myself, I eat vegan most of the time, but I'm not strict by any measure. The extra land use from my organic purchases is more than offset by eating lower on the food chain.
vitalyan1234 4mo ago
[flagged]
- jraph 4mo ago
  Hey, at least you won't find any worm in there! It should be fine if you remove the first layer. And the other layers as well after that one. If you throw away the whole thing it should be completely safe for you anyway. If you handle your trash carefully, with gloves and a mask, that is.
npunt 4mo ago
This argument at its logical extreme would be that we should grow slop in vats because that takes less land to feed people. Agree that climate and biodiversity are two very important factors, but there's others. Health effects (e.g. quality-adjusted life years) being one, soil health & resilience another. Monocropping pesticide-laden foods is not some ideal state.

tartoran 4mo ago

Organic foods could be a bit tastier (as opposed tasteless and bland) but that's not always the case. But when that's the case it's a no brainer to me what to buy.

shanekandy 4mo ago

Does no one think this is a little strange and suspicious? This blog post from 2024 is citing another blog post that cites a survey with a sample of 813 people in the UK, but without an actual link to the survey. And while dancing around with other things is of course a pro glyphosate argument. I think there is a difference between avoiding all pesticides, and say avoiding glyphosate, which is why I prefer the buy the organically grown version or some vegetables. If anyone wants to chow down on glyphosate, knock yourself out, but so what if other people are paying a little more to not. That's their prerogative. Everyone can have what they want. What is this blog even arguing?

eager_learner 4mo ago
Exactly. Also, it doesn't even mention the fact that when a crop becomes dis-organic (or unorganic), it's no longer food since the taste and texture changes somewhat. The change of taste is a good indicator that you're eating poison. Or at least, it has no health benefits. Organic crops may have pesticides too, but at least they are still health-giving food that may counter some of the effects of pesticides. With inorganic, you are hurt twice: the chemicals and then the food itself offers no benefits.
- tpush 4mo ago
  Absolute nonsense.
  - eager_learner 4mo ago
    That you are using ad hominem (indirectly) proves I am right-- otherwise you would have used counter-arguments with details.

giacomoforte 4mo ago

I don't think using the median lethal dose of toxicity is a good metric to compare pesticides.

dingdingdang 4mo ago

I do find it fascinating how blatantly people lie about things, the article mentions "Organic farming uses 84% more land for the same yield, but yields are 55% lower by area than conventional." yes, and that is the exact signature indicating that organic produce receives less harsh chemicals and is less exploitive of the ecosystem than "regular" produce. Not worth the read, it's simply anti-organic propaganda. Note: I'm not personally religious about organic/not-organic but neither do I enjoy overt misinformation campaigns.

themafia 4mo ago

> and was borne out of consumer demand and misinformation. So there was absolutely no reliable data they used? It was _entirely_ misinformation? That seems dubious. > Most people have been misled to believe that organic is superior and that’s not your fault I'd like fewer cancer causing chemicals sprayed onto or around my food. I'm not sure that's "superior" but it seems "more reasonable than not." > in order to drive people to purchase organic produce Not exactly a "hard sell" is it? > All pesticides are toxic And "toxic" defines a _wide_ range of features and outcomes, does it not? Now who's fear mongering? > Another study making claims about glyphosate in urine, that the median glyphosate levels in organic food consumers and individuals with known exposure are essentially identical (390 vs 400 parts per trillion, respectively). So corporate farming is so onerous that there's no way to avoid glyphosate cross contamination? I found this whole thing to be a very goofy analysis that seems preoccupied with punching down on some imagined conspiratorial enemy.

perplex 4mo ago

I think food quality is real and the same foods from certain stores taste better and make me feel better than from other stores. So I usually pick my food based on brand/store rather than organic labeling. A lot of what I buy happens to be organic, but I eat it because it tastes good, not because of the label. I do think organic bananas taste better than non-organic. Same with meat and eggs, but any high-quality meat is great, organic or not. For flour, pasta, and cereal, I feel like it comes down to the brand, not whether it's organic. Maybe food quality is more complex than what an organic label actually measures.

littlestymaar 4mo ago
Maybe it's just because reducing treatment makes produces more fragile, which means by buying organic you end up eating fresher stuff just because it couldn't withstand the logistic that heavily treated food endure.

warumdarum 4mo ago

Organic is also more contaminated with fungicide toxins resulting in certain cancer rates beeing higher in the "organic" crowd and many orgsnic farmer fields hugging connventional farfields to get at least some fungicides

jraph 4mo ago
Do you have a source for this?

woadwarrior01 4mo ago

The author of the piece seems to have some conflict of interest WRT organic farming. Here's a two year old LinkedIn post[1] where she claims to have been a keynote speaker at the Croplife America Annual Meeting. Headline on the Croplife America website[2] is: "We Represent America's Pesticide Industry". I rest my case. :) [1]: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andrea-love-phd_scientistlife-scicomm-medicalaffairs-activity-7108433473995960320-S9Yy https://www.linkedin.com/posts/andrea-love-phd_scientistlife... [2]: https://croplifeamerica.org/ https://croplifeamerica.org/

superkuh 4mo ago
The point of this article is that "organic" farming uses organic pesticides. And more of them are required than when using synthetic pesticides. But I suppose it is the wrong pesticides for the industry lobby (except for copper sulfate?) and that's why they'd have someone write up this article. Not because of the true statements about the synthetic pesticides being safer (lower LD50, lower mass needing to be applied, etc). Both "sides" that are involved (organic pesticides vs non-organic pesticides) here are arguing for pesticide use in practice.
- NonHyloMorph 4mo ago
  It's written in bad faith in my opinion and also factually wrong in multiple places. Nicotine sulfate which the srticle explicitly discusses as one of the "natural" substances, used in organic farming (i assune the context is US specifix here) is a) not the natural occuring nicotine of e.g. tobacco plants and b) stictly prohibihed for all types of agriculture, organic or notchemically modified nix. And the use of the LD50 toxicity as sole metric is laughable: caring about not being exposed to carcinogenic substances, would not even make sense, when everythink that is harmful would also be accordingly toxic in the sense of an LD50 dose.
  - superkuh 4mo ago
    It is good to known many of these toxic organic pesticides are banned in the USA. I do wonder about the large fraction of the produce in US grocer's stores that comes from other countries though.

ezbie 4mo ago

Not saying this lad is lying, vut it would helpnif they added at least the sources to their claims

erelong 4mo ago

> All y aren't x, therefore z better than y Some kind of fallacious argument in this form

F3nd0 4mo ago

Even assuming it’s right, I don’t like this article. Not because of the claims it makes, but rather because of the implications it makes—or doesn’t care to avoid. Organic farming is essentially the idea of farming more ‘in line with nature’, and is concretely defined and regulated by different laws in different places. If these regulations aren’t yielding the expected results, it may be a good idea to drop or improve them. What I find dangerous, though, is the easily acquirable belief that the idea of organic farming is deceptive and worthless. Certain practices present in conventional farming are known to be problematic and it’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned and seek to avoid them. Organic farming can miss the goal, but my understanding is that it’s aiming in the right direction. Therefore, I think a more responsible conclusion to draw would be ‘today’s organic farming isn’t what it should be’, not just the plain ‘organic foods are not superior’. In this form, I fear the message does far more harm than good.

skywhopper 4mo ago

2024. I don’t think “our food is safer than ever before” is true anymore in the United States.

OutOfHere 4mo ago
In non-Organic produce, we literally use sewage mulch as a fertilizer which is PFAS and toxin ridden. It doesn't get much more poisonous than this.

jraph 4mo ago

I've read the same kind of argumentative Mille-feuille garbage in French already. You have to think about who is motivated to write this kind of stuff. Invariably, it's people selling conventional pesticides or people paid by such people. The lobbying is strong, contrary to the arguments. This is actually a very good sign, these despicable people feel threatened. I don't know the rules of the organic label in the US, here in Europe it's not perfect, and yeah, thhere are still pesticides including some bad stuff like copper sulfates that are allowed, and the level of care absolutely vary from ome producer to another but it's still better than conventional products for pretty much everything except for the price if you don't factor in the cost of the damage done to the environment and yourself. This kind of misinformation needs to be firmly fought back. They want to sell glyphosate, which they try to trick us into thinking it's not bad, that's the full extent of it. It's bad, we are better off without it, that's it, end of the story.

skyberrys 4mo ago

Farmers market foods overall taste better. When I talk to the farmers frequently they will tell me they don't pay to be certified organic, but they use no sprays and fertilizer is organic (things like worm compost). They also do tend to use a lot of plastic, which I worry about but less than pesticides.

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jaredcwhite 4mo ago

Every few years, I hear something like this. And every time, I wonder who is going to believe them, because almost without exception when I purchase organic produce it tastes noticeably better. Perhaps one could argue "well, that's not because it's certified organic, it's because it's a smaller farm that uses these other crop-growing techniques blah blah blah". OK. Irrelevant. The point is, when I buy conventional produce, and then I buy organic produce, the organic stuff is clearly higher quality. Even better? Go to a farmers market and buy directly from the source.

fsflover 4mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Public_perception

KevinMS 4mo ago

I don't really believe in "organic foods" but I believe they sometimes are higher quality because their consumers expect more from them, although at a higher price. Just look at supermarket tomatos for example.

ofrzeta 4mo ago

I will provide one example where organic food is healthier: nitrate levels in organic spinach are lower. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25850811/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25850811/ Apart from that I buy organic because it's also better for the environment. Among other things also due to lower nitrate levels in the groundwater. Which is consistently above the maximum allowed concentration in Germany for years. https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/nitrate-in-groundwater-8th-eap https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/nitrate-in-...