6 ms·

The fact that these behemoths are being powered by gas generators is horrifying

code_biologist 4mo ago
Your language is ambiguous — your horror is in reference to natural gas turbine generators (used at these installations) and not gasoline generators (like in a home context)? Why the horror? I'd prefer the gas remain in the ground, but given the gassy production of US shale oil, I guess I'd rather it be used for this than just flared. I am frustrated that pollutant emissions aren't being policed, and also that the sudden turbine demand plus supply chain issues mean using aeroderivative turbines that are quite a bit less efficient than more complex combined cycle turbines. https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-work https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-wor...
- vel0city 4mo ago
  > I guess I'd rather it be used for this than just flared I doubt this is really reducing the rates of flaring and leaky wells. Its just additional demand. The biggest problem I've seen is they tend to build these somewhat close to residential areas with generation on-site. Often these power generation centers aren't right next to residential areas due to both air and noise pollution. But governments are often seeming to turn a blind eye.
  - code_biologist 4mo ago
    Yes, the noise pollution is insane. Benn Jordan's YT video "Datacenters Behaving Like Acoustic Weapons" is an insightful, scary 30 min video covering the datacenter infrasound noise, and the nasty things infrasound does to people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo
- mlyle 4mo ago
  We have plenty of fields producing just natural gas in the US. It is not merely a byproduct of oil production. Only about 35 percent is “associated gas” production from oil production.
- unknownfuture 4mo ago
  I'd prefer they use cheap and available renewables rather than accelerating climate change. But to each their own I guess. (And to head it off at the pass: if that can't be done then this should be done at all)
  - Grombobulous 4mo ago
    Exactly, especially the case when solar+battery are so similar in cost to gas turbine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Capital_costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#...
    - diordiderot 4mo ago
      Land permitting is tough maybe why they use tents
      - deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
  - daedrdev 4mo ago
    There is currently 2x us electricity production in solar and batteries stuck in permit hell due to the US requiring they pay for grid upgrades before connection in a first in first out line that has grown in length and costs. We could have cheap and available renewables, but we instead destroy them in bureaucratic hell that nobody cares about.
    - MithrilTuxedo 4mo ago
      Are they connecting gas generators to the grid?
    - fc417fc802 4mo ago
      > due to the US requiring they pay for grid upgrades before connection Is that not perfectly reasonable? Someone doing half the job and dumping the rest on everyone else seems like exactly the sort of thing a regulator exists to prevent. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the issue is that solar would be located somewhere remote, the backhaul to get that electricity where it needs to be requires significant upgrades, and that takes time. Which is unfortunate and indicates historic mismanagement of said infrastructure but nonetheless the present day policy of "fix the problem first" seems perfectly reasonable.
- uridjd274 4mo ago
  Hear hear! Much better to put all that energy to good use rather than waste it
giancarlostoro 4mo ago
It's not supposed to be permanent, but it also allows them to not waste time waiting on physical locations to be built. Given how highly competitive this all is, I'm not surprised at all.
- pier25 4mo ago
  Every time I do something that's not supposed to be permanent until I have time to implement a proper solution it lasts for years.
  - axus 4mo ago
    Temporarily using CO2 generators for the next 10 years
- vel0city 4mo ago
  There's nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- zekrioca 4mo ago
  It is so sweet that you believe in all these.
bethekidyouwant 4mo ago
How did you want to power them? You know the gas generators are the largest power generation source in the US right?
- emsign 4mo ago
  How about not powering them at all.
  - bethekidyouwant 4mo ago
    Horrifying
  - Karrot_Kream 4mo ago
    And what happens when something you politically approve of needs power?
    - WarmWash 4mo ago
      Well obviously power that.
    - graveemaster 4mo ago
      How about being transparent when we ask the residents what they want. If this hypothetical scenario you fear comes to fruition, maybe instead of back door deals/misinformation/straight up lying for hype, we publicly ask the people who have to suffer the consequences of our political desires. Sounds civil to me.
    - Grombobulous 4mo ago
      Political approval is the basis of societal consent. A whole lot of things are allowed/disallowed based on political approval. Zoning laws, noise ordinances, toxic waste disposal, food safety standards, etc. I can't run a frozen lasagna factory from my house. It's illegal. I don't have political approval. If the people do not approve of data centers, they don't get built. Simple as that. Businesses do not have an inherent right to exist. Businesses are granted their existence and places of operation by the state and local municipalities that license them.
Karrot_Kream 4mo ago
The reason is because permitting and building a natgas generator is the easiest among the energy production methods in the US. Datacenters need to be close-ish to Internet Exchanges to be cost competitive when lighting up network capacity. Solar cells are expensive (Chinese tariffs or domestic production) and permitting is tough. Nuclear is still a permitting and cost nightmare. Wind requires a lot of land. Hydroelectric is considered an environmental dead end after the ecological effects of the Hoover Dam. Geothermal is still unproven. Transmission lines moving power between generation and consumption is a permitting nightmare. In that world, natural gas just makes the most sense. The US hasn't build generation capacity in any meaningful way in decades. We've deindustrialized over time so it's been relatively okay, until a new form of industry (datacenters) starts putting pressure on the whole thing.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- paleotrope 4mo ago
  Building a facility that uses megawatts of energy in an old farm field in the country, and having long lead times to get it installed, isn't really indicative of "deindustrialization" is it? Also, I don't think building datacenters outside of Columbus are being driven by closeness to an IX. I don't recall seeing Columbus as being significant on any US backbone map. More likely they just want to be close to each other. Someone must have started that ball rolling.
  - Karrot_Kream 4mo ago
    > I don't recall seeing Columbus as being significant on any US backbone map. More likely they just want to be close to each other. Someone must have started that ball rolling. AWS us-east-2 (2016) and GCP us-east5 (2022) are both in Ohio. Not 100% sure they're close to an IX but my guess is there's existing infra to route onto. > Building a facility that uses megawatts of energy in an old farm field in the country, and having long lead times to get it installed, isn't really indicative of "deindustrialization" is it? Sorry I think my message might have gotten a bit conflated. I meant, in the offshoring that happened in the US in the late '90s-early '00s, the US ended up losing industrial demand. Obviously consumer demand increased in the meantime but we've been living on a mostly stagnant energy supply for a long time.
root-parent 4mo ago
Illegal gas turbines, should be noted...
- thepryz 4mo ago
  Elon's was definitely illegal/unpermitted gas turbines as countless news stories that came out can attest but do you have any support to claim Meta's turbines are?

Your language is ambiguous — your horror is in reference to natural gas turbine generators (used at these installations) and not gasoline generators (like in a home context)? Why the horror? I'd prefer the gas remain in the ground, but given the gassy production of US shale oil, I guess I'd rather it be used for this than just flared. I am frustrated that pollutant emissions aren't being policed, and also that the sudden turbine demand plus supply chain issues mean using aeroderivative turbines that are quite a bit less efficient than more complex combined cycle turbines. https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-work https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-wor...

vel0city 4mo ago
> I guess I'd rather it be used for this than just flared I doubt this is really reducing the rates of flaring and leaky wells. Its just additional demand. The biggest problem I've seen is they tend to build these somewhat close to residential areas with generation on-site. Often these power generation centers aren't right next to residential areas due to both air and noise pollution. But governments are often seeming to turn a blind eye.
- code_biologist 4mo ago
  Yes, the noise pollution is insane. Benn Jordan's YT video "Datacenters Behaving Like Acoustic Weapons" is an insightful, scary 30 min video covering the datacenter infrasound noise, and the nasty things infrasound does to people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bP80DEAbuo
mlyle 4mo ago
We have plenty of fields producing just natural gas in the US. It is not merely a byproduct of oil production. Only about 35 percent is “associated gas” production from oil production.
unknownfuture 4mo ago
I'd prefer they use cheap and available renewables rather than accelerating climate change. But to each their own I guess. (And to head it off at the pass: if that can't be done then this should be done at all)
- Grombobulous 4mo ago
  Exactly, especially the case when solar+battery are so similar in cost to gas turbine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Capital_costs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#...
  - diordiderot 4mo ago
    Land permitting is tough maybe why they use tents
    - deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
- daedrdev 4mo ago
  There is currently 2x us electricity production in solar and batteries stuck in permit hell due to the US requiring they pay for grid upgrades before connection in a first in first out line that has grown in length and costs. We could have cheap and available renewables, but we instead destroy them in bureaucratic hell that nobody cares about.
  - MithrilTuxedo 4mo ago
    Are they connecting gas generators to the grid?
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    > due to the US requiring they pay for grid upgrades before connection Is that not perfectly reasonable? Someone doing half the job and dumping the rest on everyone else seems like exactly the sort of thing a regulator exists to prevent. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the issue is that solar would be located somewhere remote, the backhaul to get that electricity where it needs to be requires significant upgrades, and that takes time. Which is unfortunate and indicates historic mismanagement of said infrastructure but nonetheless the present day policy of "fix the problem first" seems perfectly reasonable.
uridjd274 4mo ago
Hear hear! Much better to put all that energy to good use rather than waste it

giancarlostoro 4mo ago

It's not supposed to be permanent, but it also allows them to not waste time waiting on physical locations to be built. Given how highly competitive this all is, I'm not surprised at all.

pier25 4mo ago
Every time I do something that's not supposed to be permanent until I have time to implement a proper solution it lasts for years.
- axus 4mo ago
  Temporarily using CO2 generators for the next 10 years
vel0city 4mo ago
There's nothing more permanent than a temporary solution.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
zekrioca 4mo ago
It is so sweet that you believe in all these.

bethekidyouwant 4mo ago

How did you want to power them? You know the gas generators are the largest power generation source in the US right?

emsign 4mo ago
How about not powering them at all.
- bethekidyouwant 4mo ago
  Horrifying
- Karrot_Kream 4mo ago
  And what happens when something you politically approve of needs power?
  - WarmWash 4mo ago
    Well obviously power that.
  - graveemaster 4mo ago
    How about being transparent when we ask the residents what they want. If this hypothetical scenario you fear comes to fruition, maybe instead of back door deals/misinformation/straight up lying for hype, we publicly ask the people who have to suffer the consequences of our political desires. Sounds civil to me.
  - Grombobulous 4mo ago
    Political approval is the basis of societal consent. A whole lot of things are allowed/disallowed based on political approval. Zoning laws, noise ordinances, toxic waste disposal, food safety standards, etc. I can't run a frozen lasagna factory from my house. It's illegal. I don't have political approval. If the people do not approve of data centers, they don't get built. Simple as that. Businesses do not have an inherent right to exist. Businesses are granted their existence and places of operation by the state and local municipalities that license them.

Karrot_Kream 4mo ago

The reason is because permitting and building a natgas generator is the easiest among the energy production methods in the US. Datacenters need to be close-ish to Internet Exchanges to be cost competitive when lighting up network capacity. Solar cells are expensive (Chinese tariffs or domestic production) and permitting is tough. Nuclear is still a permitting and cost nightmare. Wind requires a lot of land. Hydroelectric is considered an environmental dead end after the ecological effects of the Hoover Dam. Geothermal is still unproven. Transmission lines moving power between generation and consumption is a permitting nightmare. In that world, natural gas just makes the most sense. The US hasn't build generation capacity in any meaningful way in decades. We've deindustrialized over time so it's been relatively okay, until a new form of industry (datacenters) starts putting pressure on the whole thing.

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
paleotrope 4mo ago
Building a facility that uses megawatts of energy in an old farm field in the country, and having long lead times to get it installed, isn't really indicative of "deindustrialization" is it? Also, I don't think building datacenters outside of Columbus are being driven by closeness to an IX. I don't recall seeing Columbus as being significant on any US backbone map. More likely they just want to be close to each other. Someone must have started that ball rolling.
- Karrot_Kream 4mo ago
  > I don't recall seeing Columbus as being significant on any US backbone map. More likely they just want to be close to each other. Someone must have started that ball rolling. AWS us-east-2 (2016) and GCP us-east5 (2022) are both in Ohio. Not 100% sure they're close to an IX but my guess is there's existing infra to route onto. > Building a facility that uses megawatts of energy in an old farm field in the country, and having long lead times to get it installed, isn't really indicative of "deindustrialization" is it? Sorry I think my message might have gotten a bit conflated. I meant, in the offshoring that happened in the US in the late '90s-early '00s, the US ended up losing industrial demand. Obviously consumer demand increased in the meantime but we've been living on a mostly stagnant energy supply for a long time.

root-parent 4mo ago

Illegal gas turbines, should be noted...

thepryz 4mo ago
Elon's was definitely illegal/unpermitted gas turbines as countless news stories that came out can attest but do you have any support to claim Meta's turbines are?