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For anybody that's been paying attention in the last 20 years, the collegiate funnel to success is broken in the technology/startup sector. I'm not dismissing

For anybody that's been paying attention in the last 20 years, the collegiate funnel to success is broken in the technology/startup sector. I'm not dismissing the role of education, however. Education is vastly important. A formal education with an expensive stamp on it? Not so much. Continuing my discussion of the startup/technology sector, there was a time when a great degree would get you into places where you worked with awesome folks doing hugely important jobs. Over time, more awesome folks and hugely important jobs existed separate from that great degree. We've now reached a point where having that great degree many times is counter-indicative of performance ability, so it becomes kind of a social club. I hate to say it, but for run-of-the-mill high technology jobs where you interact heavily with a business customer and make some magic happen? I view deep dives in college as a warning sign that you might be validating yourself against a model that has little practical impact in the larger world. I really hated to admit that, because I deeply love education. But dang it, I believe the tables are flipped. You are more likely to get great help in the startup/technology sector from some 20-year-old who knows everything about technology from his personal passions than you are from a 25-year-old with a Master's degree from an Ivy League institution. And in terms of organizations, it's a big red flag as far as productivity goes for those places with tight controls over collegiate applicant. Unless you're building the next LHC. Whenever I see some job that's a straight technology job that has "and a masters degree in CS" without the following "or equivalent experience"? I'm thinking this isn't a place I want to be associated with. They have no idea what they are doing.

mcguire 14y ago
I find it strange that you would bring up the (possibly mythical) "20-year-old who knows everything about technology" in the same statement as "deep dives in college as a warning sign". In my, admittedly limited, experience, the big difference between someone with "a formal education with an expensive stamp" and someone without is breadth. There are, as far as I've seen, very few "20-year-olds who know everything about technology", but there are plenty of 20-year-olds who know a great deal about some specific technology or technologies. And if that technology is what you need (note, not what you want), they're golden. And if by "startup/technology sector", you mean the "web startup sector", that's fairly likely. On the other hand, if it isn't, you may not be. If all you have is a hammer and a screwdriver, everything is going to look like a threaded nail.
jacques_chester 14y ago
Disclaimer: I earned my BCompSci with 1st Class Honours -- ie, a miniature research degree -- last year and I am damn proud of the work I did to get it. > You are more likely to get great help in the startup/technology sector from some 20-year-old who knows everything about technology from his personal passions than you are from a 25-year-old with a Master's degree from an Ivy League institution. This is a false dichotomy with a side order of strawman. Here, let me play: "You are more likely to get great help in the startup/technology sector from some 25-year-old who pursued their passion for websites and earned a Masters from a dissertation on HTTP than you are from a 20-year-old with a who reads two dozen blogs and keeps up with the tweets". See how that works? Whether a person has a degree or not is orthogonal to their passion for a subject. But it so happens that you don't get a top score in a research degree by just ticking the boxes or colouring between the lines. You need to be passionate about the topic. And it so happens that this is true of mastery of any subject. Those who are passionate about a subject will obsessively read about it, study it, tinker with it and spend the time to deeply grok a topic because that's what they love doing. Sometimes this happens in academia. Sometimes in industry.
- geebee 14y ago
  I agree, but there's one difference I see here. The general public still has a greater expectation that a 25 year old with a Master's degree from an Ivy League institution will be knowledgeable than a 20 year old who reads two dozen blogs and keeps up with the tweets. So yes, you can create any favorable/unfavorable comparison you want with the words by adding "passion" before the comma. But there are some instances where people still need this reminder. Just recently, a recruiter wrote that a CS degree from Brown would count for a lot more than one from UIUC or U Tex. I was personally sort of shocked by this, because I thought that it was widely understood that the rigor and quality of CS programs at these universities was very high (absolutely nothing against Brown, which has great students, I was just sort of amazed that a recruiter would discount degrees from two "top 10" programs simply because, as large state schools, they're easier to "get into"... yeah, and anyone can "get into" basic training in the marines, it's getting through that's the tough part). So I'd say "a student who has excelled in a highly rigorous CS program is better prepared than an indifferent student from an elite college." See, I just did it. But is this as vacuous as any statement you can construct using this trick/tactic? I will say one thing - you've added something to my "alert phrases." You're entirely right that people do abuse this rhetorical trick, so I'll be on the lookout for it. However, I wouldn't dismiss these sorts of comparisons outright, they can be meaningful.
BCM43 14y ago
I've been looking through sysadmin and programming job ads, and I've been wondering what "equivalent experience" means. Would you mind shedding some light?

mcguire 14y ago

I find it strange that you would bring up the (possibly mythical) "20-year-old who knows everything about technology" in the same statement as "deep dives in college as a warning sign". In my, admittedly limited, experience, the big difference between someone with "a formal education with an expensive stamp" and someone without is breadth. There are, as far as I've seen, very few "20-year-olds who know everything about technology", but there are plenty of 20-year-olds who know a great deal about some specific technology or technologies. And if that technology is what you need (note, not what you want), they're golden. And if by "startup/technology sector", you mean the "web startup sector", that's fairly likely. On the other hand, if it isn't, you may not be. If all you have is a hammer and a screwdriver, everything is going to look like a threaded nail.

jacques_chester 14y ago

Disclaimer: I earned my BCompSci with 1st Class Honours -- ie, a miniature research degree -- last year and I am damn proud of the work I did to get it. > You are more likely to get great help in the startup/technology sector from some 20-year-old who knows everything about technology from his personal passions than you are from a 25-year-old with a Master's degree from an Ivy League institution. This is a false dichotomy with a side order of strawman. Here, let me play: "You are more likely to get great help in the startup/technology sector from some 25-year-old who pursued their passion for websites and earned a Masters from a dissertation on HTTP than you are from a 20-year-old with a who reads two dozen blogs and keeps up with the tweets". See how that works? Whether a person has a degree or not is orthogonal to their passion for a subject. But it so happens that you don't get a top score in a research degree by just ticking the boxes or colouring between the lines. You need to be passionate about the topic. And it so happens that this is true of mastery of any subject. Those who are passionate about a subject will obsessively read about it, study it, tinker with it and spend the time to deeply grok a topic because that's what they love doing. Sometimes this happens in academia. Sometimes in industry.

geebee 14y ago
I agree, but there's one difference I see here. The general public still has a greater expectation that a 25 year old with a Master's degree from an Ivy League institution will be knowledgeable than a 20 year old who reads two dozen blogs and keeps up with the tweets. So yes, you can create any favorable/unfavorable comparison you want with the words by adding "passion" before the comma. But there are some instances where people still need this reminder. Just recently, a recruiter wrote that a CS degree from Brown would count for a lot more than one from UIUC or U Tex. I was personally sort of shocked by this, because I thought that it was widely understood that the rigor and quality of CS programs at these universities was very high (absolutely nothing against Brown, which has great students, I was just sort of amazed that a recruiter would discount degrees from two "top 10" programs simply because, as large state schools, they're easier to "get into"... yeah, and anyone can "get into" basic training in the marines, it's getting through that's the tough part). So I'd say "a student who has excelled in a highly rigorous CS program is better prepared than an indifferent student from an elite college." See, I just did it. But is this as vacuous as any statement you can construct using this trick/tactic? I will say one thing - you've added something to my "alert phrases." You're entirely right that people do abuse this rhetorical trick, so I'll be on the lookout for it. However, I wouldn't dismiss these sorts of comparisons outright, they can be meaningful.

BCM43 14y ago

I've been looking through sysadmin and programming job ads, and I've been wondering what "equivalent experience" means. Would you mind shedding some light?