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Landing is an abnormal situation for an aircraft which we make SUBSTANTIALLY less dangerous through intense automation. Do you want to rip out automated landing

Landing is an abnormal situation for an aircraft which we make SUBSTANTIALLY less dangerous through intense automation. Do you want to rip out automated landing systems?

bumby 4mo ago
If you expect every aircraft to land, it seems to meet the very definition of "normal" operation. An abnormal landing would be something like trying to land with a broken elevator surface.
- adampunk 4mo ago
  And you contend that autopilot makes that situation more dangerous? Do you have any support for this?
  - bumby 4mo ago
    As the article already states, there is a well known phenomenon in aviation called automation-induced complacency. So, yes, if you automate landing to the extent that human pilots no longer pay attention to abnormal signals that indicate something is wrong, or no longer feel the need to train or stay vigilant, it can make things more dangerous. There is plenty of research on this, but here's the first that came up in a cursory search: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20020021642/downloads/20020021642.pdf https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20020021642/downloads/20... A more recent example is the Boeing 737-Max where there was a focus on automating trim control. In that case, the automation made the system more complex, to the detriment of a pilot understanding and reacting to an abnormal operation. We should also be careful that we don't create a false dichotomy between "all automated or no automation", or an expectation that more automation is always better. The goal should be the right balance that increases reliability/safety.
    - filleduchaos 4mo ago
      > A more recent example is the Boeing 737-Max where there was a focus on automating trim control. In that case, the automation made the system more complex, to the detriment of a pilot understanding and reacting to an abnormal operation To be fair this is not entirely accurate: a focus was made on stall prevention in a very specific mode of flight given the variant's increased susceptibility to the pitch-power couple. It did not make the system any more complex per se than other airliners - see e.g. Airbus aircraft which do actually have autotrim in normal flight. The actual kicker was that the existence of MCAS was hidden to avoid the need for lengthy re-training of pilots if the 737 MAX was deemed sufficiently different from its predecessor variants (on top of MCAS being rather poorly implemented in its first iteration).
      - bumby 4mo ago
        Fair enough. The “hidden” aspect is what I was alluding to…ie, control that exists but isn’t apparent to the pilots (and worse, intermittent). In the human factors world, it was more complex than the pilots assumed, but you’re right that it’s probably not the best description. (As an aside, the hazard being mitigated, ie stall, has little bearing on whether or not it’s autonomous or complex, although it does impact whether its safety critical)
  - filleduchaos 4mo ago
    The fact that the autopilot will loudly disengage if there is a serious enough control surface failure to cause an upset is more than enough support IMO.
- gbacon 4mo ago
  The circumstance doesn’t have to be that dramatic to be abnormal. Landing after a merely unstable approach, too many significant changes too close to landing, increases risk. Landing too fast may result in overrunning the end of the runway, pilot induced oscillation, or loss of control. Energy being proportional to the square of velocity means the margin doesn’t have to be huge to pose significant danger. Landing too slow risks an aerodynamic stall or worse a spin, which at low altitude is nearly certain to be fatal. Landing safely with a crosswind requires technique changes. Too much crosswind or “running out of rudder” is extremely dangerous. Landing after accumulating airframe icing is triply bad because the ice reduces the control surfaces’ aerodynamic effectiveness, makes the airplane heavier, and requires a faster landing.
filleduchaos 4mo ago
Not only is landing not an "abnormal situation", contrary to armchair internet wisdom pilots of airliners in fact do not use autoland all the time and don't even always fly a precision approach at all. Not to mention that they get mandated regular reviews of their ability to fly manually. And even with that, there's still a reason why "children of the magenta line" (i.e. pilots who passively follow automated systems into danger and/or have seriously degraded stick-and-rudder skills) has become a term.
- adampunk 4mo ago
  2 things. First, landing a plane is abnormal! You're shedding a huge amount of energy and you're transitioning from a state where you can keep flying due to your speed to one where flight is impossible as you lower speed. That's an abnormal state to put an aircraft in, regardless of how often it happens. Second, what exactly is the level of automation you're saying is not necessary? Should we rip out radar systems that mark glide paths?
  - bumby 4mo ago
    You seem to confuse "high consequence" with "abnormal".
    - adampunk 4mo ago
      I mean you confused the 737-max problems with the general notion of automation, so...
      - bumby 4mo ago
        First, snark goes against HN guidelines so you might want familiarize yourself with them. Secondly, MCAS autonomously adjusts trim based on sensor inputs to avoid a hazard. It is not advisory and directly controls flight surfaces. This would make it automation according to how organizations like NASA categorize flight software taxonomy.
  - bluefirebrand 4mo ago
gbacon 4mo ago
The FAA describes taxi, takeoff, landing, and operations other than cruise flight below 10,000 MSL as critical phases of flight because of increased risk. The aircraft is closer to the ground, other aircraft, and hazards such that prompt, correct responses are essential to the safe outcome of the flight. Any equipment on the aircraft can and will fail. Becoming dependent on autoland — not a worry on most general aviation aircraft — is terrible risk management. Every pilot must maintain hand flying skills. Automation is nice and reduces workload, but the pilot must actively manage it.

Landing is an abnormal situation for an aircraft which we make SUBSTANTIALLY less dangerous through intense automation. Do you want to rip out automated landing systems?

bumby 4mo ago

If you expect every aircraft to land, it seems to meet the very definition of "normal" operation. An abnormal landing would be something like trying to land with a broken elevator surface.

adampunk 4mo ago
And you contend that autopilot makes that situation more dangerous? Do you have any support for this?
- bumby 4mo ago
  As the article already states, there is a well known phenomenon in aviation called automation-induced complacency. So, yes, if you automate landing to the extent that human pilots no longer pay attention to abnormal signals that indicate something is wrong, or no longer feel the need to train or stay vigilant, it can make things more dangerous. There is plenty of research on this, but here's the first that came up in a cursory search: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20020021642/downloads/20020021642.pdf https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20020021642/downloads/20... A more recent example is the Boeing 737-Max where there was a focus on automating trim control. In that case, the automation made the system more complex, to the detriment of a pilot understanding and reacting to an abnormal operation. We should also be careful that we don't create a false dichotomy between "all automated or no automation", or an expectation that more automation is always better. The goal should be the right balance that increases reliability/safety.
  - filleduchaos 4mo ago
    > A more recent example is the Boeing 737-Max where there was a focus on automating trim control. In that case, the automation made the system more complex, to the detriment of a pilot understanding and reacting to an abnormal operation To be fair this is not entirely accurate: a focus was made on stall prevention in a very specific mode of flight given the variant's increased susceptibility to the pitch-power couple. It did not make the system any more complex per se than other airliners - see e.g. Airbus aircraft which do actually have autotrim in normal flight. The actual kicker was that the existence of MCAS was hidden to avoid the need for lengthy re-training of pilots if the 737 MAX was deemed sufficiently different from its predecessor variants (on top of MCAS being rather poorly implemented in its first iteration).
    - bumby 4mo ago
      Fair enough. The “hidden” aspect is what I was alluding to…ie, control that exists but isn’t apparent to the pilots (and worse, intermittent). In the human factors world, it was more complex than the pilots assumed, but you’re right that it’s probably not the best description. (As an aside, the hazard being mitigated, ie stall, has little bearing on whether or not it’s autonomous or complex, although it does impact whether its safety critical)
- filleduchaos 4mo ago
  The fact that the autopilot will loudly disengage if there is a serious enough control surface failure to cause an upset is more than enough support IMO.
gbacon 4mo ago
The circumstance doesn’t have to be that dramatic to be abnormal. Landing after a merely unstable approach, too many significant changes too close to landing, increases risk. Landing too fast may result in overrunning the end of the runway, pilot induced oscillation, or loss of control. Energy being proportional to the square of velocity means the margin doesn’t have to be huge to pose significant danger. Landing too slow risks an aerodynamic stall or worse a spin, which at low altitude is nearly certain to be fatal. Landing safely with a crosswind requires technique changes. Too much crosswind or “running out of rudder” is extremely dangerous. Landing after accumulating airframe icing is triply bad because the ice reduces the control surfaces’ aerodynamic effectiveness, makes the airplane heavier, and requires a faster landing.

filleduchaos 4mo ago

Not only is landing not an "abnormal situation", contrary to armchair internet wisdom pilots of airliners in fact do not use autoland all the time and don't even always fly a precision approach at all. Not to mention that they get mandated regular reviews of their ability to fly manually. And even with that, there's still a reason why "children of the magenta line" (i.e. pilots who passively follow automated systems into danger and/or have seriously degraded stick-and-rudder skills) has become a term.

adampunk 4mo ago
2 things. First, landing a plane is abnormal! You're shedding a huge amount of energy and you're transitioning from a state where you can keep flying due to your speed to one where flight is impossible as you lower speed. That's an abnormal state to put an aircraft in, regardless of how often it happens. Second, what exactly is the level of automation you're saying is not necessary? Should we rip out radar systems that mark glide paths?
- bumby 4mo ago
  You seem to confuse "high consequence" with "abnormal".
  - adampunk 4mo ago
    I mean you confused the 737-max problems with the general notion of automation, so...
    - bumby 4mo ago
      First, snark goes against HN guidelines so you might want familiarize yourself with them. Secondly, MCAS autonomously adjusts trim based on sensor inputs to avoid a hazard. It is not advisory and directly controls flight surfaces. This would make it automation according to how organizations like NASA categorize flight software taxonomy.
- bluefirebrand 4mo ago

gbacon 4mo ago

The FAA describes taxi, takeoff, landing, and operations other than cruise flight below 10,000 MSL as critical phases of flight because of increased risk. The aircraft is closer to the ground, other aircraft, and hazards such that prompt, correct responses are essential to the safe outcome of the flight. Any equipment on the aircraft can and will fail. Becoming dependent on autoland — not a worry on most general aviation aircraft — is terrible risk management. Every pilot must maintain hand flying skills. Automation is nice and reduces workload, but the pilot must actively manage it.