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From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students w

by nhashem 14y ago

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administration does not support narrowly tailored proposals that do not meet the President's long-term objectives with respect to comprehensive immigration reform." Essentially this bill "converts" the 55,000 "diversity visas" currently available into "STEM visas." It looks like this bill originated from the Republican party, so I'm wondering why they didn't just write a bill that allocated additional STEM visas without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas.

btilly 14y ago
Because they want to force Democrats to be on record voting against letting entrepreneurs into the country. The potential for attack ads during the next election cycle matters more in Washington DC than actually getting things done.
- sharkweek 14y ago
  A little OT : Here's a great example of a bill being written with explicit intent of making anyone who votes against it look like a terrible person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Children_from_Internet_Pornographers_Act_of_2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Children_from_Intern... Written by Lamar Smith, Mr. Privacy Invader himself -- make sure to read the Privacy issues section of the wiki page
  - commandar 14y ago
    Rep. Smith is also responsible for the STEM bill in question here. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.6429 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.6429: I've come to associate his name with being a bit of a red flag. EDIT: HN is mangling the hyperlink for some reason. Copy+pasting will get you to the bill.
    - sounds 14y ago
      I hire people who would be considered "STEM," but as mentioned below, this will drive down the wage my employees can get. I oppose this bill for other reasons too – but since my startup is too small, so I can't apply for H1B visa workers, I can't recruit outside the US anyway. I care about my employees and at this stage I can afford to pay them above market rates. I don't have any trouble holding on to them, though occasionally life interferes – one employee moved for personal reasons. These big companies that donated to the Obama campaign – "Apple, Microsoft, and Adobe" are called out in the article – if they are having trouble hiring highly educated employees while their profits are measured in billions, would they please consider offering a raise to their current employees? I'd be surprised if they could demonstrate they raised their salary by 50% and were still unable to fill their open positions. Yes, I know that many companies consider salary one of their biggest cost centers, but I believe that misses the essential feature of hiring an employee: they become part of the company. Employees are compensated with cash; stockholders are compensated other ways. Especially in a large, profitable software company, it isn't _actually_ hard to pay your employees above average rates.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    Lamar Smith also authored the existing immigration law (IIRIRA) which is widely considered to be an abject failure. One provision had esteemed Judge Richard Posner exclaiming 'the law can't be that ridiculous!' before setting it aside in a recent case. The law had a provision for granting advance parole to people whose immigration proceedings were incomplete so they could leave the country for things like weddings, funerals and so on and get back in to pick up where they left off. However, leaving the country also caused the immigration application to be considered abandoned, and the advance parole could be rejected. It even says on the advance parole application form that if granted, the parole may or may not be worth the paper it's written on - it depends on how the immigration officer at the port of entry is feeling on that particular day. That should tell you all you need to know about Rep. Lamar Smith.
    - jedbrown 14y ago
      Good thing he's chairing the next House Science Committee. http://science.house.gov/press-release/chairman-hall-congratulates-rep-lamar-smith-selection-be-next-chairman-science-space http://science.house.gov/press-release/chairman-hall-congrat...
      - tptacek 14y ago
        Membership on House Science is unfortunately a signal of low status: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4655470 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4655470
        anigbrowl 14y ago
        Did not realize that. How depressing :-(
    - Alterlife 14y ago
      I am not American, and I have no idea how American politics works... The bottom line to me is that despite (or because of) the things this chap is doing, he got reelected. Why are Americans voting for him?
  - Evbn 14y ago
    I don't see the point of these shenanigans. If they want to on TV and lie about their opponents, they can do that. Do they need the phony bill titles for plausibility? The voting public is nowhere near smart enough to soft through the distinctions.
    - commandar 14y ago
      They do it because it's effective. Max Cleland lost his Senate race to Saxby Chambliss in 2002 partially on the back of attack ads that showed images of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein while claiming Cleland didn't support President Bush's "vital security measures." In reality, the votes in question involved things like Cleland voting against a Republican and for a Democratic version of a proposal, or larger bills that contained poison pills. It was downright shameful -- and John McCain called it exactly that -- but it was effective.
      - maxcan 14y ago
        Max Cleland is known to hate America. He was only willing to sacrifice three of his limbs in the service of the United States Army. Saxby Chambliss, on the other hand, is a true patriot who proves this by yelling and screaming about it and never letting some pedantic BS about the "Constitution" obstruct his plans to remake America into his utopian vision as expressed by the movie "Idiocracy".
- jbooth 14y ago
  This, exactly. If congressional republicans actually wanted the additional STEM visas, they could pass a clean bill doing only that and Obama would probably sign it, based on the statement above.
- mayneack 14y ago
  Except they can't force the (Senate) Democrats to vote on it because they can just not bring it up and it will die in January. Also, while this is framed as an immigration bill, the Democrats won't take too much bad PR in important (Hispanic) immigrant communities because the vast majority of those aren't the tech job type. Holding out for a comprehensive plan is probably a good move for Obama because he can include this as an incentive to vote for it. If they don't get some sort of comprehensive plan, it's still good because the Democrats could basically just introduce this without the zero-sum part and then the Republicans will be the ones against both skilled and unskilled immigrants.
- Vivtek 14y ago
  And if they vote for it, Democrats can be accused of being hypocritical when it comes to diversity. It's a no-lose situation for the GOP.
rndmize 14y ago
If this is the case, the title of the article strikes me as poorly chosen.
- davorak 14y ago
  Given the number of articles that have been as poorly chosen it would not surprise me if this was the case.
- onetwothreefour 14y ago
  The title of the article strikes me as one written by a Republican. This is a terrible bill, that's why it's not being signed.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  Declan McCullough's reporting on legal issues frequently seems completely off base to me.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Yes. He also recently reported Patrick Leahy supporting a measure to liberalize law enforcement access to email without a warrant; Leahy supported a measure that was effectively the opposite, which is no surprise as Leahy is one of the most liberal members of the Senate, with a very strong ACLU scorecard. But fact checking this stuff would cost CNet rageviews.
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      rageviews XD
mynameishere 14y ago
without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Isn't that a sensible humanitarian policy?
- scarmig 14y ago
  It is, of course, totally insane to let people voluntarily choose to work here and make voluntary economic transactions with other adults who voluntarily want to pay them money to provide goods and services for Americans to voluntarily purchase.
  - celer 14y ago
    Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. I strongly support increasing the number of total visas, but that is separate.
    - stfp 14y ago
      > Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. But that's not the case.
    - __alexs 14y ago
      > There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. Better for who?
- ptgloden 14y ago
  "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." - a certain statue's impossibly brutal attack on sanity

by nhashem 14y ago

btilly 14y ago

Because they want to force Democrats to be on record voting against letting entrepreneurs into the country. The potential for attack ads during the next election cycle matters more in Washington DC than actually getting things done.

sharkweek 14y ago
A little OT : Here's a great example of a bill being written with explicit intent of making anyone who votes against it look like a terrible person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Children_from_Internet_Pornographers_Act_of_2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Children_from_Intern... Written by Lamar Smith, Mr. Privacy Invader himself -- make sure to read the Privacy issues section of the wiki page
- commandar 14y ago
  Rep. Smith is also responsible for the STEM bill in question here. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.6429 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.6429: I've come to associate his name with being a bit of a red flag. EDIT: HN is mangling the hyperlink for some reason. Copy+pasting will get you to the bill.
  - sounds 14y ago
    I hire people who would be considered "STEM," but as mentioned below, this will drive down the wage my employees can get. I oppose this bill for other reasons too – but since my startup is too small, so I can't apply for H1B visa workers, I can't recruit outside the US anyway. I care about my employees and at this stage I can afford to pay them above market rates. I don't have any trouble holding on to them, though occasionally life interferes – one employee moved for personal reasons. These big companies that donated to the Obama campaign – "Apple, Microsoft, and Adobe" are called out in the article – if they are having trouble hiring highly educated employees while their profits are measured in billions, would they please consider offering a raise to their current employees? I'd be surprised if they could demonstrate they raised their salary by 50% and were still unable to fill their open positions. Yes, I know that many companies consider salary one of their biggest cost centers, but I believe that misses the essential feature of hiring an employee: they become part of the company. Employees are compensated with cash; stockholders are compensated other ways. Especially in a large, profitable software company, it isn't _actually_ hard to pay your employees above average rates.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  Lamar Smith also authored the existing immigration law (IIRIRA) which is widely considered to be an abject failure. One provision had esteemed Judge Richard Posner exclaiming 'the law can't be that ridiculous!' before setting it aside in a recent case. The law had a provision for granting advance parole to people whose immigration proceedings were incomplete so they could leave the country for things like weddings, funerals and so on and get back in to pick up where they left off. However, leaving the country also caused the immigration application to be considered abandoned, and the advance parole could be rejected. It even says on the advance parole application form that if granted, the parole may or may not be worth the paper it's written on - it depends on how the immigration officer at the port of entry is feeling on that particular day. That should tell you all you need to know about Rep. Lamar Smith.
  - jedbrown 14y ago
    Good thing he's chairing the next House Science Committee. http://science.house.gov/press-release/chairman-hall-congratulates-rep-lamar-smith-selection-be-next-chairman-science-space http://science.house.gov/press-release/chairman-hall-congrat...
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Membership on House Science is unfortunately a signal of low status: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4655470 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4655470
      - anigbrowl 14y ago
        Did not realize that. How depressing :-(
  - Alterlife 14y ago
    I am not American, and I have no idea how American politics works... The bottom line to me is that despite (or because of) the things this chap is doing, he got reelected. Why are Americans voting for him?
- Evbn 14y ago
  I don't see the point of these shenanigans. If they want to on TV and lie about their opponents, they can do that. Do they need the phony bill titles for plausibility? The voting public is nowhere near smart enough to soft through the distinctions.
  - commandar 14y ago
    They do it because it's effective. Max Cleland lost his Senate race to Saxby Chambliss in 2002 partially on the back of attack ads that showed images of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein while claiming Cleland didn't support President Bush's "vital security measures." In reality, the votes in question involved things like Cleland voting against a Republican and for a Democratic version of a proposal, or larger bills that contained poison pills. It was downright shameful -- and John McCain called it exactly that -- but it was effective.
    - maxcan 14y ago
      Max Cleland is known to hate America. He was only willing to sacrifice three of his limbs in the service of the United States Army. Saxby Chambliss, on the other hand, is a true patriot who proves this by yelling and screaming about it and never letting some pedantic BS about the "Constitution" obstruct his plans to remake America into his utopian vision as expressed by the movie "Idiocracy".
jbooth 14y ago
This, exactly. If congressional republicans actually wanted the additional STEM visas, they could pass a clean bill doing only that and Obama would probably sign it, based on the statement above.
mayneack 14y ago
Except they can't force the (Senate) Democrats to vote on it because they can just not bring it up and it will die in January. Also, while this is framed as an immigration bill, the Democrats won't take too much bad PR in important (Hispanic) immigrant communities because the vast majority of those aren't the tech job type. Holding out for a comprehensive plan is probably a good move for Obama because he can include this as an incentive to vote for it. If they don't get some sort of comprehensive plan, it's still good because the Democrats could basically just introduce this without the zero-sum part and then the Republicans will be the ones against both skilled and unskilled immigrants.
Vivtek 14y ago
And if they vote for it, Democrats can be accused of being hypocritical when it comes to diversity. It's a no-lose situation for the GOP.

rndmize 14y ago

If this is the case, the title of the article strikes me as poorly chosen.

davorak 14y ago
Given the number of articles that have been as poorly chosen it would not surprise me if this was the case.
onetwothreefour 14y ago
The title of the article strikes me as one written by a Republican. This is a terrible bill, that's why it's not being signed.
anigbrowl 14y ago
Declan McCullough's reporting on legal issues frequently seems completely off base to me.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Yes. He also recently reported Patrick Leahy supporting a measure to liberalize law enforcement access to email without a warrant; Leahy supported a measure that was effectively the opposite, which is no surprise as Leahy is one of the most liberal members of the Senate, with a very strong ACLU scorecard. But fact checking this stuff would cost CNet rageviews.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    rageviews XD

mynameishere 14y ago

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

philwelch 14y ago
Isn't that a sensible humanitarian policy?
scarmig 14y ago
It is, of course, totally insane to let people voluntarily choose to work here and make voluntary economic transactions with other adults who voluntarily want to pay them money to provide goods and services for Americans to voluntarily purchase.
- celer 14y ago
  Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. I strongly support increasing the number of total visas, but that is separate.
  - stfp 14y ago
    > Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. But that's not the case.
  - __alexs 14y ago
    > There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. Better for who?
ptgloden 14y ago
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." - a certain statue's impossibly brutal attack on sanity