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> The problem with that is it generally requires a central point of trust. The problem with it is that the people who want to use a central point of trust as a

> The problem with that is it generally requires a central point of trust. The problem with it is that the people who want to use a central point of trust as a chokepoint for censorship, surveillance and monopolization keep claiming that this is required when it isn't. > Sure you can allow multiple points of trust, but for the unskilled user, that means that the little lock symbol becomes unreliable (or whatever) The premise being that if you have a monopoly then ordinary people can trust it. Only that isn't the case. A monopolist not only can be just as malicious or incompetent as any of the multiple players in a competitive landscape, they're more likely to be because the lack of competitive pressure allows them to be more abusive and complacent and more capable of capturing the government. > under a certain age, if they took photos or videos of other kids, that makes them liable to be on a list, for life That seems like a problem caused by the law. Why is it possible for any actions taken as a minor to cause someone to be put on a permanent list when we recognize that minors aren't mature enough to be held responsible for that? > Now imagine not being able to get that photo back. Now imagine what would be necessary to get it back. It's on some other person's private device. Either you invade everyone's privacy and private communications to check if they might have it or be privately sharing it, or they could be. The cure is worse than the disease.

KaiserPro 4mo ago
> That seems like a problem caused by the law. Why is it possible for any actions taken as a minor to cause someone to be put on a permanent list when we recognize that minors aren't mature enough to be held responsible for that? Its a second order effect. The problem is predators get children to take pictures and distribute them. To stop them escaping justice it requires a certain level of absolutism. In Common law, there are exceptions. However people exploit the system. > Now imagine what would be necessary to get it back. It's on some other person's private device. Either you invade everyone's privacy and private communications to check if they might have it or be privately sharing it, or they could be. The cure is worse than the disease. I mean there are loads of ways to look at this. But if we want to have strong controls over your data, then sharing should be controlled by the owner, not the platform. Currently there are no trusted environments that allow people to share securely and privately data without it being copied. My understanding of what is being proposed is that cameras will have basic nudity detection on them, and they will refuse to take the pictures if the device is registered to a person under the age of 18. That, more or less is not privacy invading, depending on how its done. The central point that you are missing here is that something which was quite hard to happen in 1999 was destructive to a child life. Now its much easier to do, and there is an actual economy in sourcing, exploiting and trading these pictures/videos.
- AnthonyMouse 4mo ago
  > Its a second order effect. The problem is predators get children to take pictures and distribute them. It isn't. The solution is obvious. You punish the predators and not the children. > My understanding of what is being proposed is that cameras will have basic nudity detection on them, and they will refuse to take the pictures if the device is registered to a person under the age of 18. Which seems both problematic (now every device needs to be registered?) and ineffective (the predator has the children use a device registered to an adult or an older device without any such constraints). > The central point that you are missing here is that something which was quite hard to happen in 1999 was destructive to a child life. Now its much easier to do, and there is an actual economy in sourcing, exploiting and trading these pictures/videos. This seems to be your central premise but it's also not even true. If a predator got children to take such pictures with film camera in the 20th century and was then in possession of the negatives, there was no centralized system to detect this or prevent them from having a darkroom to make and distribute copies. The solution is to have the police arrest them, which continues to be the solution even now without needing to compromise the devices of every innocent member of the public. > But if we want to have strong controls over your data, then sharing should be controlled by the owner, not the platform. You're assuming the conclusion -- that there should be a platform in a position to control (i.e restrict) sharing. If communications are end to end encrypted, no one other the parties even knows what it is. That is what you are by implication prohibiting -- unintermediated private communications.
  - KaiserPro 4mo ago
    I am deeply worried about privacy. the problem that I have here is if we don't provide a sensible middle ground, we will get a terrible solution imposed (ie the age gate spyware, instead of the rollingo ut of the mobile block lists the UK already had) > It isn't. The solution is obvious. You punish the predators and not the children. the core problem is that in the UK more and more CSAM is being prodiced by kids themselves. Most grooming of digital images is done remotely, via exploitation. (ie I have pictures of you, please send more or I'll send them to x) Now, because the person extorting them is not taking the pictures they had a defence of "they were sent to me, I didn't know what to do so deleted them blah blah blah" These people hunt down the kids sending stuff to lovers and the like, that gets leaked, because kids are cruel, and try and extort them. I would gently ask you to look in the changes into sentencing guidelines and the evidence used to compile that advice. Yes, older devices can be used, and oncein the hands of extortionists then they are in deep shit. The point of this, and the point that Jess Phillipson was getting at, is if kids can't take these pictures as easily, they can't be leaked as easily which means there is much less (but not zero) chance of being exploited, > You're assuming the conclusion -- that there should be a platform in a position to control Sorry my bad phrasing. the ideal solution here is end to end encrypted but also encrypted image but with the keys controlled by the owner of the image "private" computing is the answer, where every view of private images requires a key exchange. there are hardware locks to stop people getting at the frame buffer, only apps that you approve can have access, and flagged data that you send auto deletes and expires. Ironically this is basically extreme copyright enforcement(everything you create, more or less is your own copyright) But we can't get to that yet, because Ad tech/meta/google doesn't like that. TLDR its less obvious but I also share your worry about privacy.

KaiserPro 4mo ago

> That seems like a problem caused by the law. Why is it possible for any actions taken as a minor to cause someone to be put on a permanent list when we recognize that minors aren't mature enough to be held responsible for that? Its a second order effect. The problem is predators get children to take pictures and distribute them. To stop them escaping justice it requires a certain level of absolutism. In Common law, there are exceptions. However people exploit the system. > Now imagine what would be necessary to get it back. It's on some other person's private device. Either you invade everyone's privacy and private communications to check if they might have it or be privately sharing it, or they could be. The cure is worse than the disease. I mean there are loads of ways to look at this. But if we want to have strong controls over your data, then sharing should be controlled by the owner, not the platform. Currently there are no trusted environments that allow people to share securely and privately data without it being copied. My understanding of what is being proposed is that cameras will have basic nudity detection on them, and they will refuse to take the pictures if the device is registered to a person under the age of 18. That, more or less is not privacy invading, depending on how its done. The central point that you are missing here is that something which was quite hard to happen in 1999 was destructive to a child life. Now its much easier to do, and there is an actual economy in sourcing, exploiting and trading these pictures/videos.

AnthonyMouse 4mo ago
> Its a second order effect. The problem is predators get children to take pictures and distribute them. It isn't. The solution is obvious. You punish the predators and not the children. > My understanding of what is being proposed is that cameras will have basic nudity detection on them, and they will refuse to take the pictures if the device is registered to a person under the age of 18. Which seems both problematic (now every device needs to be registered?) and ineffective (the predator has the children use a device registered to an adult or an older device without any such constraints). > The central point that you are missing here is that something which was quite hard to happen in 1999 was destructive to a child life. Now its much easier to do, and there is an actual economy in sourcing, exploiting and trading these pictures/videos. This seems to be your central premise but it's also not even true. If a predator got children to take such pictures with film camera in the 20th century and was then in possession of the negatives, there was no centralized system to detect this or prevent them from having a darkroom to make and distribute copies. The solution is to have the police arrest them, which continues to be the solution even now without needing to compromise the devices of every innocent member of the public. > But if we want to have strong controls over your data, then sharing should be controlled by the owner, not the platform. You're assuming the conclusion -- that there should be a platform in a position to control (i.e restrict) sharing. If communications are end to end encrypted, no one other the parties even knows what it is. That is what you are by implication prohibiting -- unintermediated private communications.
- KaiserPro 4mo ago
  I am deeply worried about privacy. the problem that I have here is if we don't provide a sensible middle ground, we will get a terrible solution imposed (ie the age gate spyware, instead of the rollingo ut of the mobile block lists the UK already had) > It isn't. The solution is obvious. You punish the predators and not the children. the core problem is that in the UK more and more CSAM is being prodiced by kids themselves. Most grooming of digital images is done remotely, via exploitation. (ie I have pictures of you, please send more or I'll send them to x) Now, because the person extorting them is not taking the pictures they had a defence of "they were sent to me, I didn't know what to do so deleted them blah blah blah" These people hunt down the kids sending stuff to lovers and the like, that gets leaked, because kids are cruel, and try and extort them. I would gently ask you to look in the changes into sentencing guidelines and the evidence used to compile that advice. Yes, older devices can be used, and oncein the hands of extortionists then they are in deep shit. The point of this, and the point that Jess Phillipson was getting at, is if kids can't take these pictures as easily, they can't be leaked as easily which means there is much less (but not zero) chance of being exploited, > You're assuming the conclusion -- that there should be a platform in a position to control Sorry my bad phrasing. the ideal solution here is end to end encrypted but also encrypted image but with the keys controlled by the owner of the image "private" computing is the answer, where every view of private images requires a key exchange. there are hardware locks to stop people getting at the frame buffer, only apps that you approve can have access, and flagged data that you send auto deletes and expires. Ironically this is basically extreme copyright enforcement(everything you create, more or less is your own copyright) But we can't get to that yet, because Ad tech/meta/google doesn't like that. TLDR its less obvious but I also share your worry about privacy.