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> but `std::span` should have been there decades ago Absolutely! I now use it consistently in all new projects where I can afford to mandate C++20. I guess nob

> but `std::span` should have been there decades ago Absolutely! I now use it consistently in all new projects where I can afford to mandate C++20. I guess nobody bothered to make a proposal before...

pjmlp 4mo ago
They did in C, from one of the language authors even, and it was not accepted. https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/vararray.pdf https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/varar... By the way, both Extended Pascal, Mesa/Cedar and Modula-2 have them, under the name of open arrays. Basically it took Go, C# and others for C++ to finally get its span. C probably never will.
- spacechild1 4mo ago
  Everybody knows that C++ did not invent the concept of spans and that it was late to the party. It doesn’t change the fact that (presumably) nobody made a proposal to the C++ standard.
  - pjmlp 4mo ago
    Microsoft made the proposal for C++, after Midori project, and Office security improvements. Which by your comment, you have no clue about how it came to be. Proposal is linked in another comment of mine.
    - spacechild1 4mo ago
      Well, you could have linked an actual proposal instead of dropping some cool facts about C, Extended Pascal, Mesa/Cedar and Modula-2, as if that explained anything.
  - tialaramex 4mo ago
    > It doesn’t change the fact that (presumably) nobody made a proposal to the C++ standard. There were proposals about this for many years. C++ is just a terrible programming language, standardized by a committee (WG21) which exists in large part to boost the ego of one man, Bjarne Stroustrup. N3851 for example wants to name this idea "array_view" which like "string_view" is an impressively unwieldy name for a core language feature, because of course neither of these were actually proposed as core language features even though that's what they naturally should be -- but it is basically the slice type or as you (and modern C++) call it a "span". It's true that you can't change facts but what you've got here was a belief which was unfounded, not a fact.
    - spacechild1 4mo ago
      > There were proposals about this for many years. I wrote "presumably", but you are 100% correct. I'm always happy to be proven wrong. N3851 actually deals with multi-dimensional spans and goes way beyond a simple slice/span type. To me it seems closer to std::mdspan than std::span. The earliest proposal I could find that does propose something similar to std::span dates back to 2012: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3334.html https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n33... I really don't understand why this was not pursued further. At the very least, this should have made it into C++17 together with std::string_view. > because of course neither of these were actually proposed as core language features even though that's what they naturally should be Should it really? What would this even look like in C++? IMO std::span works perfectly fine as a library type. > C++ is just a terrible programming language, standardized by a committee (WG21) which exists in large part to boost the ego of one man, Bjarne Stroustrup. That's certainly not the reason why it was standardized. Pre-C++98 was wild west with every compiler offering there own (incompatible) idea of what C++ is. Yes, there are many problems with design by committee in general (and the C++ committee in particular), but there was a very good reason for standardizing the language. The committee is not a one man show and there are many occasions where Bjarne has publicly voiced his frustration and disagreement.
      - tialaramex 4mo ago
        > The committee is not a one man show Of course it isn't, all the great egotists need a parade of sycophants to heap praise on them, you've doubtless seen modern US "Cabinet meetings" in which TV hosts newly elevated to run parts of the US government compete with experienced politicians as they all try to offer the most effusive praise for their snoring God King. Personally, I'd throw up, but then I'm very much of Groucho Marx's view on such things.
        spacechild1 4mo ago
        Are your seriously comparing the C++ standard committee to the Trump administration? I know you have an axe to grind, but this is getting ridiculous. Where exactly have you seen this "parade of sycophants" in the C++ standards committee? As far as I know, Bjarne is just a regular committee members with just as many votes as everyone else and no veto powers. The committee frequently accepts or rejects proposals against his will. For a recent example, see his harsh criticism of the new 'contracts' feature in C++26.

pjmlp 4mo ago

They did in C, from one of the language authors even, and it was not accepted. https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/vararray.pdf https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/varar... By the way, both Extended Pascal, Mesa/Cedar and Modula-2 have them, under the name of open arrays. Basically it took Go, C# and others for C++ to finally get its span. C probably never will.

spacechild1 4mo ago
Everybody knows that C++ did not invent the concept of spans and that it was late to the party. It doesn’t change the fact that (presumably) nobody made a proposal to the C++ standard.
- pjmlp 4mo ago
  Microsoft made the proposal for C++, after Midori project, and Office security improvements. Which by your comment, you have no clue about how it came to be. Proposal is linked in another comment of mine.
  - spacechild1 4mo ago
    Well, you could have linked an actual proposal instead of dropping some cool facts about C, Extended Pascal, Mesa/Cedar and Modula-2, as if that explained anything.
- tialaramex 4mo ago
  > It doesn’t change the fact that (presumably) nobody made a proposal to the C++ standard. There were proposals about this for many years. C++ is just a terrible programming language, standardized by a committee (WG21) which exists in large part to boost the ego of one man, Bjarne Stroustrup. N3851 for example wants to name this idea "array_view" which like "string_view" is an impressively unwieldy name for a core language feature, because of course neither of these were actually proposed as core language features even though that's what they naturally should be -- but it is basically the slice type or as you (and modern C++) call it a "span". It's true that you can't change facts but what you've got here was a belief which was unfounded, not a fact.
  - spacechild1 4mo ago
    > There were proposals about this for many years. I wrote "presumably", but you are 100% correct. I'm always happy to be proven wrong. N3851 actually deals with multi-dimensional spans and goes way beyond a simple slice/span type. To me it seems closer to std::mdspan than std::span. The earliest proposal I could find that does propose something similar to std::span dates back to 2012: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3334.html https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n33... I really don't understand why this was not pursued further. At the very least, this should have made it into C++17 together with std::string_view. > because of course neither of these were actually proposed as core language features even though that's what they naturally should be Should it really? What would this even look like in C++? IMO std::span works perfectly fine as a library type. > C++ is just a terrible programming language, standardized by a committee (WG21) which exists in large part to boost the ego of one man, Bjarne Stroustrup. That's certainly not the reason why it was standardized. Pre-C++98 was wild west with every compiler offering there own (incompatible) idea of what C++ is. Yes, there are many problems with design by committee in general (and the C++ committee in particular), but there was a very good reason for standardizing the language. The committee is not a one man show and there are many occasions where Bjarne has publicly voiced his frustration and disagreement.
    - tialaramex 4mo ago
      > The committee is not a one man show Of course it isn't, all the great egotists need a parade of sycophants to heap praise on them, you've doubtless seen modern US "Cabinet meetings" in which TV hosts newly elevated to run parts of the US government compete with experienced politicians as they all try to offer the most effusive praise for their snoring God King. Personally, I'd throw up, but then I'm very much of Groucho Marx's view on such things.
      - spacechild1 4mo ago
        Are your seriously comparing the C++ standard committee to the Trump administration? I know you have an axe to grind, but this is getting ridiculous. Where exactly have you seen this "parade of sycophants" in the C++ standards committee? As far as I know, Bjarne is just a regular committee members with just as many votes as everyone else and no veto powers. The committee frequently accepts or rejects proposals against his will. For a recent example, see his harsh criticism of the new 'contracts' feature in C++26.