5 ms·

You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small par

by kakacik 4mo ago

You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building. Only the biggest protected parks are untouched. City is visibly and permanently degrading into concrete field. Weirdly schizophrenic move - they try to keep pushing bike lanes everywhere, even where not safe to share the road, yet they also remove greenery and trees. I guess the money is too juicy. But not to just bash - they build on outskirts too. Switzerland as a country usually strikes good balance between various extremes, much better than US or EU countries do. I have no doubt they will work it out, not ideally, but better than most. Immigration they tackled much better than rest of Europe for example. And for the vote - its 1:1 Brexit. Vote for capping, damage your long term prosperity, and those unpopular jobs still will need to be staffed, or country will work worse, be dirtier etc. And if one can earn cleaning streets or putting stuff in shop shelves as much as cca doctor in France (with higher costs of life, but it doesn't have to be extreme), the amount of people willing to try coming and working is basically endless. The idea one can freeze time and keep the country as some idealized image from their childhood (without the nasty stuff that happened ie in 70s to orphaned kids en masse, aka Verdingkinder), one would have to become second North Korea. Everything changes these days, massively and quickly. Dictators won't be sending their kids to study here under false names anymore, would they.

lejalv 4mo ago
I agree about bike lanes in Geneva, they should take the space away from cars. Their success is so phenomenal, that they are carrying more passengers/h in some sections than the much wider street they flank.
- hackernulls 4mo ago
  [dead]
diath 4mo ago
These jobs are unpopular because the pay is shit, not because people don't want to do them, the government could simply have grants/bonus program for people employed in these positions so that the taxpayer money directly funds the bettering of the society and environment around them. Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty"; it's one of the most ethically homogeneous countries and also one of the cleanest places you can visit.
- actionfromafar 4mo ago
  Yeah... but aren't there many more poor people in Japan, too?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
- alephnerd 4mo ago
  > Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty" Japan heavily utilizes foreign workers via a Gulf style guestworker program, and even that has led to the far-right Sanseito becoming Japan's highest rated opposition party and the far-right wing of the LDP winning internal party politics.
  - deaux 4mo ago
    > via a Gulf style guestworker program They get to keep their passports and can return any time, calling it Gulf-style is a bit much. There are abuses - so are there in Europe - but it's not like they sacrificed a thousand or so immigrant worker lives on the Tokyo Olympics in Qatar 2022 style.
    - mothballed 4mo ago
      I think they mean gulf style as seen by westerners. You can get a visa but you'll never be seen as a "local" nor granted citizenship. In places like Dubai multiple generations live without ever getting citizenship or a path to it and always with the notion you can be booted at any minute if you inconvenient the wrong person or run out of money. Though I don't think this is fully true of Japan -- it's one of the easiest countries to naturalize in if you give up your other citizenships but does have the quality of always being seen as a foreigner. It's just that few people naturalize as Japanese because their immigration is most open to people from developed countries who aren't interested in giving up their birth passport to acquire Japanese nationality. If you just want a Japanese passport though no matter the downsides, I think it's one of the easier citizenship to get for an American to obtain.
jnwatson 4mo ago
Geneva is the 2nd most expensive city to live in (behind Zurich). I commend any attempt at moderating prices by building more housing.
tempay 4mo ago
> in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building I struggle to see this. Central Geneva is full of beautiful, well-maintained green spaces and children's play areas with plenty of larger parks scattered around.
aprilthird2021 4mo ago
> Too much if you ask me Good thing no one asked you. Why should you have a say in how someone else uses their land if all they are doing is building more housing units?
egorfine 4mo ago
Geneva had an extreme shortage of housing while there were plots of land perfectly suitable for construction but older people willing to sacrifice their kids' future for the sake of today's comfort and for one more year of ignoring the world around them. This problem is no unique to Geneva though.
- account42 4mo ago
  Reducing parcel sizes and similar development decreases not only your own comfort but also those of people living there in the future.
  - Schiendelman 4mo ago
    It doesn't. I know that sounds weird, but bear with me. Compare the no build scenario to the scenario where you build one more apartment, but that one new apartment is smaller than you want. In the no build scenario, the person who wants to move to Geneva doesn't get to, or they have to rent a room in an existing apartment. In the scenario where you build that one additional apartment, a person moves into it instead. So they make a choice that that was better than their existing situation. That choice is someone increasing their comfort level. There are lots of housing situations that are worse than a new apartment, even a very small one. The mistake is not realizing that everyone who moves into a new unit is increasing their comfort.

by kakacik 4mo ago

lejalv 4mo ago

I agree about bike lanes in Geneva, they should take the space away from cars. Their success is so phenomenal, that they are carrying more passengers/h in some sections than the much wider street they flank.

hackernulls 4mo ago
[dead]

diath 4mo ago

These jobs are unpopular because the pay is shit, not because people don't want to do them, the government could simply have grants/bonus program for people employed in these positions so that the taxpayer money directly funds the bettering of the society and environment around them. Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty"; it's one of the most ethically homogeneous countries and also one of the cleanest places you can visit.

actionfromafar 4mo ago
Yeah... but aren't there many more poor people in Japan, too?
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
alephnerd 4mo ago
> Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty" Japan heavily utilizes foreign workers via a Gulf style guestworker program, and even that has led to the far-right Sanseito becoming Japan's highest rated opposition party and the far-right wing of the LDP winning internal party politics.
- deaux 4mo ago
  > via a Gulf style guestworker program They get to keep their passports and can return any time, calling it Gulf-style is a bit much. There are abuses - so are there in Europe - but it's not like they sacrificed a thousand or so immigrant worker lives on the Tokyo Olympics in Qatar 2022 style.
  - mothballed 4mo ago
    I think they mean gulf style as seen by westerners. You can get a visa but you'll never be seen as a "local" nor granted citizenship. In places like Dubai multiple generations live without ever getting citizenship or a path to it and always with the notion you can be booted at any minute if you inconvenient the wrong person or run out of money. Though I don't think this is fully true of Japan -- it's one of the easiest countries to naturalize in if you give up your other citizenships but does have the quality of always being seen as a foreigner. It's just that few people naturalize as Japanese because their immigration is most open to people from developed countries who aren't interested in giving up their birth passport to acquire Japanese nationality. If you just want a Japanese passport though no matter the downsides, I think it's one of the easier citizenship to get for an American to obtain.

jnwatson 4mo ago

Geneva is the 2nd most expensive city to live in (behind Zurich). I commend any attempt at moderating prices by building more housing.

tempay 4mo ago

> in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building I struggle to see this. Central Geneva is full of beautiful, well-maintained green spaces and children's play areas with plenty of larger parks scattered around.

aprilthird2021 4mo ago

> Too much if you ask me Good thing no one asked you. Why should you have a say in how someone else uses their land if all they are doing is building more housing units?

egorfine 4mo ago

Geneva had an extreme shortage of housing while there were plots of land perfectly suitable for construction but older people willing to sacrifice their kids' future for the sake of today's comfort and for one more year of ignoring the world around them. This problem is no unique to Geneva though.

account42 4mo ago
Reducing parcel sizes and similar development decreases not only your own comfort but also those of people living there in the future.
- Schiendelman 4mo ago
  It doesn't. I know that sounds weird, but bear with me. Compare the no build scenario to the scenario where you build one more apartment, but that one new apartment is smaller than you want. In the no build scenario, the person who wants to move to Geneva doesn't get to, or they have to rent a room in an existing apartment. In the scenario where you build that one additional apartment, a person moves into it instead. So they make a choice that that was better than their existing situation. That choice is someone increasing their comfort level. There are lots of housing situations that are worse than a new apartment, even a very small one. The mistake is not realizing that everyone who moves into a new unit is increasing their comfort.