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Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more t

by stymaar 5mo ago

Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

rayiner 5mo ago
> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?
- moomin 5mo ago
  It saw a fair bit of immigration before the war to get there. The war itself obviously helped enrich them by not being in it and also practically zeroed immigration. Immigration continued after the war. There’s other factors, obviously, like early industrialisation.
- tempay 5mo ago
  In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors. Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself.
  - kakacik 5mo ago
    Well they were neutral, its just most folks, even otherwise smart ones, don't like true neutral behavior if it doesn't actually favor their side, hence such 'smart' snarky remarks I can see all the time, by people feeling they know history. Swiss accepted everybody, hundreds of thousands of refugees too, some parts even when it became obvious they will all face starvation since they were completely encircled by axis. Private banks accepted everybody's money, just like every global bank did before and after the war. They secretly helped allies - check Campione d'Italia story for example. Thats very far from neutral behavior. And so on. But most people don't want to know facts, they want simple black & white stories. It continues till today - they are officially neutral but look at their moves ie against russia during Ukraine war. Completely aligned with west (well apart from US which has top brass collaborating with their sworn mortal enemy). Look how their army looks like - 100% compatibility with NATO, 0% with russia or anybody else. They picked their side, they just don't boast around it, actions speak more than 1000 words.
  - stymaar 4mo ago
    > Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. This. In particular the chemical/pharmaceutical industry (which is still a major Swiss industry today) got bootstrapped in great part by French and German chemists moving to Switzerland where they could make chemicals that was patented elsewhere but not in Switzerland due to looser industrial property laws at the time.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.) Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today. [1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-project-database-2023 https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
  - ashdksnndck 5mo ago
    I feel like I have to read this backwards to perhaps understand it. Is 2.9x the multiplier of Swiss GDP/capita vs the Western Europe average in 1940?
    - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
      Sorry, edited for clarity.
bsimpson 5mo ago
If the referendum passes and the population crosses the threshold, Switzerland may need to remove itself from e.g. the Schengen area. All the remediations mentioned in the referendum are about suspending immigration.
bluebarbet 5mo ago
>in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth Such a claim would need terms to be defined, even before justification. Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known, yes. I would argue that endogenous factors (history and culture) are far more important in explaining Switzerland's success. Neither natural resources nor immigration are determinative of a country's wealth. See: Japan, which historically has had neither.
- throwaway2037 5mo ago
  > Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known What is meant by "mercenary attitude" here?
  - bluebarbet 5mo ago
    Historically, Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states: immigration is strictly contingent on labor needs, and citizenship is almost completely out of reach.
    - throwaway2037 4mo ago
      > Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states I need to say: Have you watched any YouTube videos about the way that low-skill migrants live and work in Gulf Arab states? It is horrifying. I will not downvote your comment if you reply in good faith. My point: Italian migrants who worked on big Swiss infra projects may not qualify for citizenship, but they did not have their passports confiscated by employers, nor lived in housing anywhere near the appalling conditions of Gulf Arab states.
jazz9k 5mo ago
[flagged]
- lejalv 5mo ago
  Citation needed.
- markdown 5mo ago
  I bet you think they eat the dogs and cats too, eh?
- prmoustache 5mo ago
  source?
aprilthird2021 5mo ago
All the butthurt people are going to come in here with screeds trying to upend a basic economic tenet that a growing population translates to economic growth if you can employ that growing population gainfully
hibberl7 5mo ago
[flagged]

by stymaar 5mo ago

rayiner 5mo ago

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

moomin 5mo ago
It saw a fair bit of immigration before the war to get there. The war itself obviously helped enrich them by not being in it and also practically zeroed immigration. Immigration continued after the war. There’s other factors, obviously, like early industrialisation.
tempay 5mo ago
In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors. Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself.
- kakacik 5mo ago
  Well they were neutral, its just most folks, even otherwise smart ones, don't like true neutral behavior if it doesn't actually favor their side, hence such 'smart' snarky remarks I can see all the time, by people feeling they know history. Swiss accepted everybody, hundreds of thousands of refugees too, some parts even when it became obvious they will all face starvation since they were completely encircled by axis. Private banks accepted everybody's money, just like every global bank did before and after the war. They secretly helped allies - check Campione d'Italia story for example. Thats very far from neutral behavior. And so on. But most people don't want to know facts, they want simple black & white stories. It continues till today - they are officially neutral but look at their moves ie against russia during Ukraine war. Completely aligned with west (well apart from US which has top brass collaborating with their sworn mortal enemy). Look how their army looks like - 100% compatibility with NATO, 0% with russia or anybody else. They picked their side, they just don't boast around it, actions speak more than 1000 words.
- stymaar 4mo ago
  > Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. This. In particular the chemical/pharmaceutical industry (which is still a major Swiss industry today) got bootstrapped in great part by French and German chemists moving to Switzerland where they could make chemicals that was patented elsewhere but not in Switzerland due to looser industrial property laws at the time.
JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.) Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today. [1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-project-database-2023 https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- ashdksnndck 5mo ago
  I feel like I have to read this backwards to perhaps understand it. Is 2.9x the multiplier of Swiss GDP/capita vs the Western Europe average in 1940?
  - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
    Sorry, edited for clarity.

bsimpson 5mo ago

If the referendum passes and the population crosses the threshold, Switzerland may need to remove itself from e.g. the Schengen area. All the remediations mentioned in the referendum are about suspending immigration.

bluebarbet 5mo ago

>in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth Such a claim would need terms to be defined, even before justification. Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known, yes. I would argue that endogenous factors (history and culture) are far more important in explaining Switzerland's success. Neither natural resources nor immigration are determinative of a country's wealth. See: Japan, which historically has had neither.

throwaway2037 5mo ago
> Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known What is meant by "mercenary attitude" here?
- bluebarbet 5mo ago
  Historically, Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states: immigration is strictly contingent on labor needs, and citizenship is almost completely out of reach.
  - throwaway2037 4mo ago
    > Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states I need to say: Have you watched any YouTube videos about the way that low-skill migrants live and work in Gulf Arab states? It is horrifying. I will not downvote your comment if you reply in good faith. My point: Italian migrants who worked on big Swiss infra projects may not qualify for citizenship, but they did not have their passports confiscated by employers, nor lived in housing anywhere near the appalling conditions of Gulf Arab states.

jazz9k 5mo ago

[flagged]

lejalv 5mo ago
Citation needed.
markdown 5mo ago
I bet you think they eat the dogs and cats too, eh?
prmoustache 5mo ago
source?

aprilthird2021 5mo ago

All the butthurt people are going to come in here with screeds trying to upend a basic economic tenet that a growing population translates to economic growth if you can employ that growing population gainfully

hibberl7 5mo ago

[flagged]