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…if Greenland voted to join the U.S., the conversation would be quite different.

ericmay 5mo ago
I don't think it would be - you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization. It's a bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland here for voting to take an action and then being ok with it in other instances. There isn't any consistency in this position in how you are picking and choosing what sovereignty you respect and what sovereignty you don't respect. Well, you can be consistent if you are in favor of the EU as an imperial organization that seeks to enlarge itself and punish member states, but I'm not sure if that's your belief.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization That’s how self determination works. > bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland* You’re muddling wildly different situations with wildly different levels of sympathy.
  - ericmay 5mo ago
    > That’s how self determination works. Right, like when the UK left the EU. > You’re muddling wildly different situations with wildly different levels of sympathy. I'm not sure they're really that different at a high level. The population of Spain would vote against Catalonia leaving. The population of the UK would vote against Scotland leaving. How can these groups (Scotland and Catalonia) self-determine to leave?
    - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
      > population of the UK would vote against Scotland leaving The UK literally let Scotland vote on it [1]. On the other end of the spectrum, Greenland is a proposed military invasion and unilateral annexation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Referendum_Act_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Referend...
      - ericmay 5mo ago
        The UK government let Scotland vote, it didn't allow the entire nation of the United Kingdom to vote on it. And they allowed it because they know it will fail and the smart thing to do if your aim is to keep the UK together (much to Russia's dismay of course) would be to let these referendums proceed when you know they don't have the votes and then they'll sort of fizzle out over time. You did support Brexit though, right? I mean they voted on it after all. > Greenland is a proposed military invasion and unilateral annexation. I don't think that is/was the only option on the table nor do I think it was a serious threat albeit it did have the intended effect which was to help scare the EU straight on spending a lot more on defense in Greenland. But let's say the US pulls together some package deal for Greenland, say, hey everyone who lives in Greenland if they vote yes to join the United Stats they get a million dollars and American citizenship (it could be something else, just a random example) and if they do so of course Denmark and the EU would be against it, but why? It's morally no different than dangling EU membership and billions of Euros in eventual aid to Scotland if it were to leave the UK.
        JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
        > UK government let Scotland vote, it didn't allow the entire nation of the United Kingdom to vote on it The UK government represents the UK. Everything doesn’t need to be a referendum. > they allowed it because they know it will fail Irrelevant. They allowed it. If the EU agreed to Switzerland voting on Schengen per se, then it would be comparable. > don't think that is/was the only option on the table But it was on the table. That makes it distinct from the other examples. Again, I think you’re muddying very different situations in a way that undermines your own arguments.

I don't think it would be - you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization. It's a bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland here for voting to take an action and then being ok with it in other instances. There isn't any consistency in this position in how you are picking and choosing what sovereignty you respect and what sovereignty you don't respect. Well, you can be consistent if you are in favor of the EU as an imperial organization that seeks to enlarge itself and punish member states, but I'm not sure if that's your belief.

JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> you're focusing on the actions of the territory (for lack of a better term) and ignoring the parent organization That’s how self determination works. > bit of a stretch to be upset at Switzerland who would be serving in a role similar to Scotland or Greenland* You’re muddling wildly different situations with wildly different levels of sympathy.
- ericmay 5mo ago
  > That’s how self determination works. Right, like when the UK left the EU. > You’re muddling wildly different situations with wildly different levels of sympathy. I'm not sure they're really that different at a high level. The population of Spain would vote against Catalonia leaving. The population of the UK would vote against Scotland leaving. How can these groups (Scotland and Catalonia) self-determine to leave?
  - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
    > population of the UK would vote against Scotland leaving The UK literally let Scotland vote on it [1]. On the other end of the spectrum, Greenland is a proposed military invasion and unilateral annexation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Referendum_Act_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Referend...
    - ericmay 5mo ago
      The UK government let Scotland vote, it didn't allow the entire nation of the United Kingdom to vote on it. And they allowed it because they know it will fail and the smart thing to do if your aim is to keep the UK together (much to Russia's dismay of course) would be to let these referendums proceed when you know they don't have the votes and then they'll sort of fizzle out over time. You did support Brexit though, right? I mean they voted on it after all. > Greenland is a proposed military invasion and unilateral annexation. I don't think that is/was the only option on the table nor do I think it was a serious threat albeit it did have the intended effect which was to help scare the EU straight on spending a lot more on defense in Greenland. But let's say the US pulls together some package deal for Greenland, say, hey everyone who lives in Greenland if they vote yes to join the United Stats they get a million dollars and American citizenship (it could be something else, just a random example) and if they do so of course Denmark and the EU would be against it, but why? It's morally no different than dangling EU membership and billions of Euros in eventual aid to Scotland if it were to leave the UK.
      - JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
        > UK government let Scotland vote, it didn't allow the entire nation of the United Kingdom to vote on it The UK government represents the UK. Everything doesn’t need to be a referendum. > they allowed it because they know it will fail Irrelevant. They allowed it. If the EU agreed to Switzerland voting on Schengen per se, then it would be comparable. > don't think that is/was the only option on the table But it was on the table. That makes it distinct from the other examples. Again, I think you’re muddying very different situations in a way that undermines your own arguments.