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That's not really a solution. The problem falls into two categories, on one hand you have non technical end users, and it takes a non trivial amount of time to

That's not really a solution. The problem falls into two categories, on one hand you have non technical end users, and it takes a non trivial amount of time to train them to roll their own crypto if you will, and it's also hard to convince them it's worth it (This is a fair point, as security is a cost/benefit between ease of use and not getting caught with your ass in the wind). On the other hand, you have companies using outsourced services, and with SaaS/PaaS/aa becoming all the rage, it's very important in my opinion that those service providers shoulder some of the responsibility to not let their users, serve their users etc in a manner that's not conducive to security/privacy etc... Punting this problem up the stack, with it most often ending on the end users desks, is IMNHO a bad idea, since then, as it is now all those good things crypto promises are the exception, rather then the norm. This is obviously much much much more complicated in practice, but I at least see this problem reflected in the "to the cloud!" mentality. EDIT: Complete rewrite.

superuser2 14y ago
Why does nontechnical users' inability to use crypto impact a business's decision on whether or not they should use externally hosted backend services?
- thorduri 14y ago
  Rewrote my previous comment, as muddling up both cases as a single obtuse analogy was a mistake on my part. But can't we say that we have both a moral and an ethical obligation to protect our nontechnical users or our fellow developers from mistakes, lack of training or in the worst case maleficence ? The business decision of using an externally hosted backend services, what ever they may be must take into account what data goes into it, out of it and how it's computed on by both you and the provider w.r.t. who the real end user is and how the data is going to live on. And here I think is the crux of the problem, those questions and their solutions are generally very hard when put into practice (I dont have a silver bullet, or even a something vaguely resembling a mold for it) so it's not very conducive to being a "Fast" company. For example, being European, it scares me a great deal that companies, schools and the public sector are increasingly punting the business decision of "how to handle email" to "let's use gmail". That in no way takes into account my concerns (and often I do not have a choice in the matter of using these services) since my mail, and by extension a large part of my life is being handed to a for profit US corporation who "does no evil". I use gmail privately though, since I did this particular cost/benefit and decided that i dont really care if google reads my mailing list traffic...
IheartApplesDix 14y ago
What is a solution? AWS is a general use compute resource. There is no reason that they should enforce crypto anywhere other than SSH/etc. That is obviously in the domain of the dependent service to decide and implement. Encryption has a cost/benefit ratio that is different for every client, there's no reason everyone should have to pay and use encryption resources if they don't need them. I find your observation that this problem is reflected especially in service oriented architectures questionable. By centralizing all resources (including documentation: http://aws.amazon.com/security/ http://aws.amazon.com/security/) It makes it easier to enforce best practices and standard interfaces. But just because they can doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do that.

superuser2 14y ago

Why does nontechnical users' inability to use crypto impact a business's decision on whether or not they should use externally hosted backend services?

thorduri 14y ago
Rewrote my previous comment, as muddling up both cases as a single obtuse analogy was a mistake on my part. But can't we say that we have both a moral and an ethical obligation to protect our nontechnical users or our fellow developers from mistakes, lack of training or in the worst case maleficence ? The business decision of using an externally hosted backend services, what ever they may be must take into account what data goes into it, out of it and how it's computed on by both you and the provider w.r.t. who the real end user is and how the data is going to live on. And here I think is the crux of the problem, those questions and their solutions are generally very hard when put into practice (I dont have a silver bullet, or even a something vaguely resembling a mold for it) so it's not very conducive to being a "Fast" company. For example, being European, it scares me a great deal that companies, schools and the public sector are increasingly punting the business decision of "how to handle email" to "let's use gmail". That in no way takes into account my concerns (and often I do not have a choice in the matter of using these services) since my mail, and by extension a large part of my life is being handed to a for profit US corporation who "does no evil". I use gmail privately though, since I did this particular cost/benefit and decided that i dont really care if google reads my mailing list traffic...

IheartApplesDix 14y ago

What is a solution? AWS is a general use compute resource. There is no reason that they should enforce crypto anywhere other than SSH/etc. That is obviously in the domain of the dependent service to decide and implement. Encryption has a cost/benefit ratio that is different for every client, there's no reason everyone should have to pay and use encryption resources if they don't need them. I find your observation that this problem is reflected especially in service oriented architectures questionable. By centralizing all resources (including documentation: http://aws.amazon.com/security/ http://aws.amazon.com/security/) It makes it easier to enforce best practices and standard interfaces. But just because they can doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do that.