3 ms·

Elderly people in our village in east Europe used to be super suspicious of the EU project and would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns

Elderly people in our village in east Europe used to be super suspicious of the EU project and would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." Hopefully they were wrong :-)

joe_mamba 4mo ago
>would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." True words of wisdom. > Hopefully they were wrong :-) They weren't. EU membership and cooperation is built on favoritism and necessity. You get into the EU if you have something of value the other members need from you (capital, geopolitical, industrial, human or natural resources) done via treaties instead of via war and conquest. So it ended up as a toxic relationship where members exploit each other to get as much as they can while contributing as little as they can. @Ukraine, you'll experience this when you get your turn, just ask Romania.
- throw-the-towel 4mo ago
  But what did Romania experience?
  - joe_mamba 4mo ago
    Banks, energy, telecom, defence, oil & gas companies had to be sold to French, German and Austrian companies for below market value, so those countries would lift their veto. Same with joining NATO TBF. We had to buy some overpriced shoddy used F-16 from the US with a lot of miles on the clock, for the same price of brand new Swedish Gripens just so the US would accepts us in NATO. So if history does indeed repeat itself, Ukraine will also have to sell off vital industry and resources to major EU corporations to get in. Like all those new shiny drone startups they have. Safe to assume Rheinmetall or Dassault will want those under German/French flag before Ukraine is allowed in the EU. Same with oil, gas and rare earths. Basically EU and NATO are two tier institutions. First there's the whales, the big players who are founders and make the rules, or get invited to join, and then there's the scrappy low level players, who need to beg and offer monetary dowry to be allowed to join. In theory everyone is equal, except some dogs are more equal than others. Because everything in the world is transactional pay-to-win. There's no charity and no handouts. If you're being invited somewhere or given something, it's because something from you is expected in exchange. @throwaway85825 Yes, except that was non negotiable form the US side. "You buy our overpriced junk or take a hike, I don't care if your poor country can't afford it." Leaked cables between our leaders at the time. Also food for thought to MAGA who keeps thinking that US acted like a charity for NATO.
    - throwaway85825 4mo ago
      Purchase price in jet deals is never straightforward because every deal is different. Variables could include: training (school + flight hours), weapons, contracted maintenance, spares, airfield infrastructure upgrades, engine overhaul etc. The only real way to compare is cost per flight hour.
    - dh2022 4mo ago
      Romanian banks were looted by Romanians in the 90s: see Paunesu brothers and BRD. Also see Dacia Felix bank, Bancorex. Romanian telecom: post communist crash Romanian telecommunications were a disaster. For example two different phone numbers shared the same line (a.k.a. Cuplajul). In late 90s some western telecom companies started investing in Romanian cellular networks- they built all the tower and network infrastructure. I do not understand what you mean when you say the west stole telecoms from Romanian - the west actually built it. Energy, oil and gas- the heydays of Romanian oil producing days were during the WWII when Romania supplied a lot of the oil used by the Germans. After that Russians took whatever was left over because of war reparations. Since I can remember Romania did not produce oil - it was dependent on Russian imports during communism for example. So there was no oil and gas for the West to steal either. Re: NATO - in the 90s and early 2000sn Romania wanted to join NATO because that particular generation remembered the Russian all too well. The priceRomania paid was enforcing the embargo on the Serbs during the Kosovo and Bosnian wars. Re: F16 - romanians are flying some hand me downs from Holland which were purchased at the dizzying price of 1 euro. I am sorry, but you sound like a Romanian nationalist, one who unfortunately is convincing enough do that the current generation does not know how much better their lives are because of EU and NATO. But who knows, maybe they will get a chance to find out… [edit - some typos]
      - panick21_ 4mo ago
        The idea that taking and helping countries like Romania was some massive commercial oppertunity is wild.
        joe_mamba 4mo ago
  - l23k4 4mo ago
    Half of the Romanians moved to other EU countries and then sent significant chunk of their earnings back home :)
    - joe_mamba 4mo ago
      Yes, by doing the poorly paid hard labor jobs the locals didn't want because they can chill on welfare, you know, the whole "muh labor shortage" bit. It's not like Germans, Dutch etc or the "new europeans" they imported, were rushing to wiping the asses of their elders in their own care homes or picking fruit all day in the sun on their own farms. What was left to send home after that wasn't "significant" by any stretch, after paying taxes, rent and CoL to further boost the local economy and the wealth of the local asset owners.
- boelboel 4mo ago
  Sometimes members are added just to prevent the EU from working better together, the reason why UK pushed hardest for expansion in 2004/2007. Funny how they'd leave the EU a few years later because of a vote that might've been decided becsuse of the 'polish plumber'.
didgetmaster 4mo ago
>Hopefully they were wrong. Over a thousand years of history has shown that they were right.
selfmodruntime 4mo ago
The EU is effectively paralysed in foreign affairs and a common fighter jet project died just today due to economic infighting. They're right.
- laughing_man 4mo ago
  Seriously? This keeps happening over and over.
- l23k4 4mo ago
  This is a deeply dishonest characterization of the FCAS.
  - selfmodruntime 4mo ago
    How so? Neither Germany nor France wanted to meaningly influence Airbus nor Dassault Aviation in any way to solve internal bickering. There was a ton of political bargaining over subsystems and job guarantees. Of course, I can go off of what‘s publicly available.
    - l23k4 4mo ago
      Neither of them could, there was a very slim set of circumstances where their goals might have sufficiently lined up for this to work. They studied it, arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't going to happen. To frame this as something that should happen is just taking an overly simplistic view on how fighter jet development works. Even if everything went perfectly, it's far from obvious that a Franco-German designed fighter could be better than a purely French one.

Elderly people in our village in east Europe used to be super suspicious of the EU project and would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." Hopefully they were wrong :-)

joe_mamba 4mo ago

>would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." True words of wisdom. > Hopefully they were wrong :-) They weren't. EU membership and cooperation is built on favoritism and necessity. You get into the EU if you have something of value the other members need from you (capital, geopolitical, industrial, human or natural resources) done via treaties instead of via war and conquest. So it ended up as a toxic relationship where members exploit each other to get as much as they can while contributing as little as they can. @Ukraine, you'll experience this when you get your turn, just ask Romania.

throw-the-towel 4mo ago
But what did Romania experience?
- joe_mamba 4mo ago
  Banks, energy, telecom, defence, oil & gas companies had to be sold to French, German and Austrian companies for below market value, so those countries would lift their veto. Same with joining NATO TBF. We had to buy some overpriced shoddy used F-16 from the US with a lot of miles on the clock, for the same price of brand new Swedish Gripens just so the US would accepts us in NATO. So if history does indeed repeat itself, Ukraine will also have to sell off vital industry and resources to major EU corporations to get in. Like all those new shiny drone startups they have. Safe to assume Rheinmetall or Dassault will want those under German/French flag before Ukraine is allowed in the EU. Same with oil, gas and rare earths. Basically EU and NATO are two tier institutions. First there's the whales, the big players who are founders and make the rules, or get invited to join, and then there's the scrappy low level players, who need to beg and offer monetary dowry to be allowed to join. In theory everyone is equal, except some dogs are more equal than others. Because everything in the world is transactional pay-to-win. There's no charity and no handouts. If you're being invited somewhere or given something, it's because something from you is expected in exchange. @throwaway85825 Yes, except that was non negotiable form the US side. "You buy our overpriced junk or take a hike, I don't care if your poor country can't afford it." Leaked cables between our leaders at the time. Also food for thought to MAGA who keeps thinking that US acted like a charity for NATO.
  - throwaway85825 4mo ago
    Purchase price in jet deals is never straightforward because every deal is different. Variables could include: training (school + flight hours), weapons, contracted maintenance, spares, airfield infrastructure upgrades, engine overhaul etc. The only real way to compare is cost per flight hour.
  - dh2022 4mo ago
    Romanian banks were looted by Romanians in the 90s: see Paunesu brothers and BRD. Also see Dacia Felix bank, Bancorex. Romanian telecom: post communist crash Romanian telecommunications were a disaster. For example two different phone numbers shared the same line (a.k.a. Cuplajul). In late 90s some western telecom companies started investing in Romanian cellular networks- they built all the tower and network infrastructure. I do not understand what you mean when you say the west stole telecoms from Romanian - the west actually built it. Energy, oil and gas- the heydays of Romanian oil producing days were during the WWII when Romania supplied a lot of the oil used by the Germans. After that Russians took whatever was left over because of war reparations. Since I can remember Romania did not produce oil - it was dependent on Russian imports during communism for example. So there was no oil and gas for the West to steal either. Re: NATO - in the 90s and early 2000sn Romania wanted to join NATO because that particular generation remembered the Russian all too well. The priceRomania paid was enforcing the embargo on the Serbs during the Kosovo and Bosnian wars. Re: F16 - romanians are flying some hand me downs from Holland which were purchased at the dizzying price of 1 euro. I am sorry, but you sound like a Romanian nationalist, one who unfortunately is convincing enough do that the current generation does not know how much better their lives are because of EU and NATO. But who knows, maybe they will get a chance to find out… [edit - some typos]
    - panick21_ 4mo ago
      The idea that taking and helping countries like Romania was some massive commercial oppertunity is wild.
      - joe_mamba 4mo ago
- l23k4 4mo ago
  Half of the Romanians moved to other EU countries and then sent significant chunk of their earnings back home :)
  - joe_mamba 4mo ago
    Yes, by doing the poorly paid hard labor jobs the locals didn't want because they can chill on welfare, you know, the whole "muh labor shortage" bit. It's not like Germans, Dutch etc or the "new europeans" they imported, were rushing to wiping the asses of their elders in their own care homes or picking fruit all day in the sun on their own farms. What was left to send home after that wasn't "significant" by any stretch, after paying taxes, rent and CoL to further boost the local economy and the wealth of the local asset owners.
boelboel 4mo ago
Sometimes members are added just to prevent the EU from working better together, the reason why UK pushed hardest for expansion in 2004/2007. Funny how they'd leave the EU a few years later because of a vote that might've been decided becsuse of the 'polish plumber'.

didgetmaster 4mo ago

>Hopefully they were wrong. Over a thousand years of history has shown that they were right.

selfmodruntime 4mo ago

The EU is effectively paralysed in foreign affairs and a common fighter jet project died just today due to economic infighting. They're right.

laughing_man 4mo ago
Seriously? This keeps happening over and over.
l23k4 4mo ago
This is a deeply dishonest characterization of the FCAS.
- selfmodruntime 4mo ago
  How so? Neither Germany nor France wanted to meaningly influence Airbus nor Dassault Aviation in any way to solve internal bickering. There was a ton of political bargaining over subsystems and job guarantees. Of course, I can go off of what‘s publicly available.
  - l23k4 4mo ago
    Neither of them could, there was a very slim set of circumstances where their goals might have sufficiently lined up for this to work. They studied it, arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't going to happen. To frame this as something that should happen is just taking an overly simplistic view on how fighter jet development works. Even if everything went perfectly, it's far from obvious that a Franco-German designed fighter could be better than a purely French one.