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What about modern non-wealthy? They neither get a fair stake in society nor even a voice that matters. Voting pretty much doesn't work. How much the issue is su

What about modern non-wealthy? They neither get a fair stake in society nor even a voice that matters. Voting pretty much doesn't work. How much the issue is supported by non-wealthy voters has no bearing on the laws that are going to be written that affect it. And by non-wealthy I pretty much mean anyone that has to work to live, regardless of whether they can find the job or not.

Planktonne 5mo ago
Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all. However, if we get to the point when control over their own lives is denied to people, it won't be unreasonable for them to resist. We've had slave revolutions before, and they weren't morally wrong.
- scotty79 5mo ago
  > Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all. How so exactly? Do you think that the fact that people in russia, for example, can vote is far from them not being allowed to vote?
  - Planktonne 5mo ago
    I wouldn't have a moral problem with people in Russia engaging in violent resistance.
    - scotty79 5mo ago
      How about US? It's just one step removed. Or maybe half a step?
      - Planktonne 5mo ago
        1. It feels like you're trying to walk me into some imagined rhetorical trap; if that's the case, feel free to speed up. 2. It's completely possible that justified violence could happen in the US; it would, as anywhere, depend on what violence by who for what reason, but there's nothing that makes the US special in this regard. In the past, on multiple occasions (resistance to slavery, for example), political violence in the cause of freedom has occurred, and I don't think that was immoral.
        scotty79 5mo ago
        Sorry. I was just curious about your response. Thanks.
        Planktonne 5mo ago
        Forgive me; I was overly touchy.
- bluefirebrand 5mo ago
  > Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all I disagree pretty strongly. If the system is rigged in such a way that you mostly get the same outcomes no matter how people vote, that is only a razor thin line away from not being allowed to vote at all
  - Planktonne 5mo ago
    I think it's an easy edge to tip over, but I'd stress that there is a difference between 'voting but having an unpopular stance' and 'denied basic rights'. There isn't a major political party that represents my views currently, for example, but it would be premature for me to start shooting because this is not (yet and hopefully ever) the same as my voice being explicitly ignored.
    - bluefirebrand 5mo ago
      > voting but having an unpopular stance This is not what I imagine when I see someone saying "voting is not effective" Unpopular stances losing in votes is voting working as intended Unpopular stances winning is when voting is very broken
jzemeocala 5mo ago
After having spent 20+ years growing up in rural FL, I've been telling people for years now that: "poor people are the new negro". If you are poor, than you look poor usually. And people ABSOLUTELY treat you differently from the government to the local store. I lived in one really messed up part of FL called interlachen that really opened my eyes to that fact.

Planktonne 5mo ago

Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all. However, if we get to the point when control over their own lives is denied to people, it won't be unreasonable for them to resist. We've had slave revolutions before, and they weren't morally wrong.

scotty79 5mo ago
> Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all. How so exactly? Do you think that the fact that people in russia, for example, can vote is far from them not being allowed to vote?
- Planktonne 5mo ago
  I wouldn't have a moral problem with people in Russia engaging in violent resistance.
  - scotty79 5mo ago
    How about US? It's just one step removed. Or maybe half a step?
    - Planktonne 5mo ago
      1. It feels like you're trying to walk me into some imagined rhetorical trap; if that's the case, feel free to speed up. 2. It's completely possible that justified violence could happen in the US; it would, as anywhere, depend on what violence by who for what reason, but there's nothing that makes the US special in this regard. In the past, on multiple occasions (resistance to slavery, for example), political violence in the cause of freedom has occurred, and I don't think that was immoral.
      - scotty79 5mo ago
        Sorry. I was just curious about your response. Thanks.
        Planktonne 5mo ago
        Forgive me; I was overly touchy.
bluefirebrand 5mo ago
> Voting not being effective is quite a long way from voting not being allowed at all I disagree pretty strongly. If the system is rigged in such a way that you mostly get the same outcomes no matter how people vote, that is only a razor thin line away from not being allowed to vote at all
- Planktonne 5mo ago
  I think it's an easy edge to tip over, but I'd stress that there is a difference between 'voting but having an unpopular stance' and 'denied basic rights'. There isn't a major political party that represents my views currently, for example, but it would be premature for me to start shooting because this is not (yet and hopefully ever) the same as my voice being explicitly ignored.
  - bluefirebrand 5mo ago
    > voting but having an unpopular stance This is not what I imagine when I see someone saying "voting is not effective" Unpopular stances losing in votes is voting working as intended Unpopular stances winning is when voting is very broken

jzemeocala 5mo ago

After having spent 20+ years growing up in rural FL, I've been telling people for years now that: "poor people are the new negro". If you are poor, than you look poor usually. And people ABSOLUTELY treat you differently from the government to the local store. I lived in one really messed up part of FL called interlachen that really opened my eyes to that fact.