4 ms·

> I don't know what to do. Ride the wave. You rode it when websites/webapps were the wave. I came into software industry before internet, kept changing my hors

by zkmon 4mo ago

> I don't know what to do. Ride the wave. You rode it when websites/webapps were the wave. I came into software industry before internet, kept changing my horse. You are never too old to learn new tricks. The new wave create new kind of work and workers. Be one of them. Ride the beast, master the tools. It's the same game again.

Verdex 4mo ago
This here. Overall society feels more turbulent, but this is otherwise all the same song and dance all over again. The 90s and 00s had this wave of "object oriented programming changes everything". Hey we're doing this thing that's been done successfully 100s of times before, but now it's OO. Writing some code in involving an airplane? Just purchase this omni-airplane object that does everything for airplanes (an actual thing I was told in college). That's weird OO isn't the be all end all? Code gen, get this Ruby on rails running. Look at me building this website in two seconds. Code gen everywhere. Huh, that's going to a funny place... TDD. If you aren't TDDing then you're such a bad engineer that you should be locked in prison (real conversation I observed). Oh wait, not TDD, BDD. That fixes it. Lean, no Agile, no agile like with a small a ... but it was first, no scrum, no xml wait that was last decade, json, and finally SAFe. Hey, have you seen this chat bot thingy? Every iteration brings good stuff if you're paying attention. But it also brings a lot of hype and anxiety. Experiment and learn. The one thing that's remained constant for me is that nearly everyone would rather die than to think carefully about the consequences of their dreams coming true. And as long as that remains true they'll continue to pay for someone else to ride the hype dragon on their behalf.
- mschuster91 4mo ago
  > Overall society feels more turbulent, but this is otherwise all the same song and dance all over again. The thing is... everything you mentioned had only brought the need to retrain. This new hotness AI? It's bringing actual layoffs, and not just of the boom bust cycle kind, but permanent, industrial-revolution kind that lasts for decades.
  - Verdex 4mo ago
    It is? Covid overhiring, no more 0% interest rates, that one accounting change, and companies needing a "growth" sounding way to announce layoffs. Maybe that's bringing actual layoffs in the name of AI?
    - mschuster91 4mo ago
      > Covid overhiring, no more 0% interest rates, that one accounting change, and companies needing a "growth" sounding way to announce layoffs. That is only compounding the problem, because with each year, IT still gets a truckload of new bootcamp or "academia" graduates that hit the pool of the unemployed.
      - neta1337 4mo ago
        It is clear that layoffs don't happen because of AI
        mschuster91 4mo ago
        Of course they do. Even in industries that didn't overhire during Covid or did other strategic blunders over the last decades, you see jobs getting cut all the time. Big Tech makes the news because everyone is looking there... but the entire economy is a bloodbath. And even those that don't do layoffs, have you looked at open job postings recently? It's all dried up, and to a large degree because C levels are waiting for the "cambrian explosion" of AI. A lot of the infamous "bullshit job" list is in serious danger of getting eliminated by AI.
- gilbetron 4mo ago
  Having lived through all of that as a professional dev, AI is completely different. There was no career anxiety of any significance for OOP or Code Gen (certainly no code gen) or TDD or Agile - there was annoyance at it by some, sure, but not the existential angst the industry is currently experiencing.
  - Verdex 4mo ago
    > AI is completely different. Okay? > existential angst I don't know, maybe there's just too many juniors on social media posing as senors spreading existential angst? I mean if GC was introduced in a time where there was an engagement AI spreading dread far and wide then I suspect we could have had the same thing. I certainly wish people would be less sad, but I'm not sure that means that things are meaningfully different on a technical level.
dodu_ 4mo ago
[flagged]
- jeremyloy_wt 4mo ago
  I think there will always be some sort of mastery element to communicating with AI. You can see that nowadays with juniors who blow through tokens and still don’t produce good results. There will always be some group of people using AI better than others. Maybe the results will be equal in the far future, but some other dimension like cost may be better used by some people
- teravor 4mo ago
  these tools cannot read your mind. every time you prompt it you condition what it will give you on what you gave it. there will either always be a limit to how good that will be or none of this will matter because no human will ever matter again. so far the skill is to condition it to give you the best results. there used to be a time where you had to hack together silly idiosyncratic prompts to get the model to do what you wanted. now you just go into the engineering and describe the object you want it to conjure for you in as much detail as possible (including the high level description of the internals if able) and any constraints you want on it.
- enraged_camel 4mo ago
  >> Something else builds it, I take credit for it despite not understanding much about about it. How much you understand what was built is entirely up to you. Literally nothing is stopping you, or anyone else, from having the AI walk you through it, or reading the code yourself if you don’t trust the AI.
  - dodu_ 4mo ago
    > Literally nothing is stopping you What about the threat of unemployment due to not meeting AI usage/output metrics? I've personally found it has effectively coerced me to stop trying to understand pretty much anything, and instead just send out whatever passes basic test to "keep up". Unless you want to just play bad-faith word games and say that "technically it's still not stopping you" in which case yeah man you got me good job buddy.
ddingus 4mo ago
Seconded. If there is any skill in consistent demand it is the ability to wrap your head around the new work, new processes, new people, whatever it all may be. For me, understanding and development of this skill into a keen tool happened while I worked as a prototype mechamic. For those unfamiliar, a prototype mechanic does what it takes to make often demanding parts on consistently short timelines week after week. Metals, plastics, you name it. One gets good at ramping up on processes, machine tools, materials. And after doing that for a while, you end up able to very rapidly absorb new info and understand work far more quickly and accurately than many. Anyone can start this. Just get curious and build things. Then build more things. Share your builds and build things other people want made!
- AnimalMuppet 4mo ago
  Question: How do you find work? Reputation? (That is, people know you by now?) If so, how did you get to that point? How did you publicize that you can do this?
- chasd00 4mo ago
  I tell my boys ( age 16 and 14 ), get good at learning and you don't have to get good at anything else!
entropyneur 4mo ago
The new tricks seem to be "ultrathink" and "you are a rock star software architect". That's not the stuff careers are made of.
- RugnirViking 4mo ago
  you are not successfully riding the wave if you think prompting better is what they're talking about. They're talking about understanding the social structures your work happens in, how they're changing, and learning what you need to to be successful in that. Product and dev are getting closer together. Reviewing is becoming more important (and people don't have good theories about how to review, maybe you can make them.). New processes - and roles! are being created to deal with the vastly increased amounts of code produced, and the increased need for documentation and verification. Performance isn't a strong suit of the AIs, they get too rigidly stuck in existing architectures and fancy tricks, and often miss low hanging fruit that requires going and talking to some people to change the system. If you've got a statistics brain then metrics, logging and verification are booming (never met a manager who doesn't love a CHART). QA and testing are also bottlenecks of the new system, and unlikely to go away soon (ai can make tests, but it can't take the responsibility to say "this will work in production". You can!)
ramblerman 4mo ago
That's good advice to stay employable. But I used to enjoy learning - I think most of us did. The existential crisis many are experiencing is about the lack of fulfilment in rolling an LLM slot machine all day in an already dopamine depleting environment.
holtkam2 4mo ago
This is the way. But also - keep your head up - your mindset matters more than you think. If you consider yourself a victim of your circumstances with no agency, this will be harder for you. So get your mentality right. Something along the lines of 'this is an exciting new era and I'm well prepared to master this new domain like I have many times before'.

by zkmon 4mo ago

Verdex 4mo ago

This here. Overall society feels more turbulent, but this is otherwise all the same song and dance all over again. The 90s and 00s had this wave of "object oriented programming changes everything". Hey we're doing this thing that's been done successfully 100s of times before, but now it's OO. Writing some code in involving an airplane? Just purchase this omni-airplane object that does everything for airplanes (an actual thing I was told in college). That's weird OO isn't the be all end all? Code gen, get this Ruby on rails running. Look at me building this website in two seconds. Code gen everywhere. Huh, that's going to a funny place... TDD. If you aren't TDDing then you're such a bad engineer that you should be locked in prison (real conversation I observed). Oh wait, not TDD, BDD. That fixes it. Lean, no Agile, no agile like with a small a ... but it was first, no scrum, no xml wait that was last decade, json, and finally SAFe. Hey, have you seen this chat bot thingy? Every iteration brings good stuff if you're paying attention. But it also brings a lot of hype and anxiety. Experiment and learn. The one thing that's remained constant for me is that nearly everyone would rather die than to think carefully about the consequences of their dreams coming true. And as long as that remains true they'll continue to pay for someone else to ride the hype dragon on their behalf.

mschuster91 4mo ago
> Overall society feels more turbulent, but this is otherwise all the same song and dance all over again. The thing is... everything you mentioned had only brought the need to retrain. This new hotness AI? It's bringing actual layoffs, and not just of the boom bust cycle kind, but permanent, industrial-revolution kind that lasts for decades.
- Verdex 4mo ago
  It is? Covid overhiring, no more 0% interest rates, that one accounting change, and companies needing a "growth" sounding way to announce layoffs. Maybe that's bringing actual layoffs in the name of AI?
  - mschuster91 4mo ago
    > Covid overhiring, no more 0% interest rates, that one accounting change, and companies needing a "growth" sounding way to announce layoffs. That is only compounding the problem, because with each year, IT still gets a truckload of new bootcamp or "academia" graduates that hit the pool of the unemployed.
    - neta1337 4mo ago
      It is clear that layoffs don't happen because of AI
      - mschuster91 4mo ago
        Of course they do. Even in industries that didn't overhire during Covid or did other strategic blunders over the last decades, you see jobs getting cut all the time. Big Tech makes the news because everyone is looking there... but the entire economy is a bloodbath. And even those that don't do layoffs, have you looked at open job postings recently? It's all dried up, and to a large degree because C levels are waiting for the "cambrian explosion" of AI. A lot of the infamous "bullshit job" list is in serious danger of getting eliminated by AI.
gilbetron 4mo ago
Having lived through all of that as a professional dev, AI is completely different. There was no career anxiety of any significance for OOP or Code Gen (certainly no code gen) or TDD or Agile - there was annoyance at it by some, sure, but not the existential angst the industry is currently experiencing.
- Verdex 4mo ago
  > AI is completely different. Okay? > existential angst I don't know, maybe there's just too many juniors on social media posing as senors spreading existential angst? I mean if GC was introduced in a time where there was an engagement AI spreading dread far and wide then I suspect we could have had the same thing. I certainly wish people would be less sad, but I'm not sure that means that things are meaningfully different on a technical level.

dodu_ 4mo ago

[flagged]

jeremyloy_wt 4mo ago
I think there will always be some sort of mastery element to communicating with AI. You can see that nowadays with juniors who blow through tokens and still don’t produce good results. There will always be some group of people using AI better than others. Maybe the results will be equal in the far future, but some other dimension like cost may be better used by some people
teravor 4mo ago
these tools cannot read your mind. every time you prompt it you condition what it will give you on what you gave it. there will either always be a limit to how good that will be or none of this will matter because no human will ever matter again. so far the skill is to condition it to give you the best results. there used to be a time where you had to hack together silly idiosyncratic prompts to get the model to do what you wanted. now you just go into the engineering and describe the object you want it to conjure for you in as much detail as possible (including the high level description of the internals if able) and any constraints you want on it.
enraged_camel 4mo ago
>> Something else builds it, I take credit for it despite not understanding much about about it. How much you understand what was built is entirely up to you. Literally nothing is stopping you, or anyone else, from having the AI walk you through it, or reading the code yourself if you don’t trust the AI.
- dodu_ 4mo ago
  > Literally nothing is stopping you What about the threat of unemployment due to not meeting AI usage/output metrics? I've personally found it has effectively coerced me to stop trying to understand pretty much anything, and instead just send out whatever passes basic test to "keep up". Unless you want to just play bad-faith word games and say that "technically it's still not stopping you" in which case yeah man you got me good job buddy.

ddingus 4mo ago

Seconded. If there is any skill in consistent demand it is the ability to wrap your head around the new work, new processes, new people, whatever it all may be. For me, understanding and development of this skill into a keen tool happened while I worked as a prototype mechamic. For those unfamiliar, a prototype mechanic does what it takes to make often demanding parts on consistently short timelines week after week. Metals, plastics, you name it. One gets good at ramping up on processes, machine tools, materials. And after doing that for a while, you end up able to very rapidly absorb new info and understand work far more quickly and accurately than many. Anyone can start this. Just get curious and build things. Then build more things. Share your builds and build things other people want made!

AnimalMuppet 4mo ago
Question: How do you find work? Reputation? (That is, people know you by now?) If so, how did you get to that point? How did you publicize that you can do this?
chasd00 4mo ago
I tell my boys ( age 16 and 14 ), get good at learning and you don't have to get good at anything else!

entropyneur 4mo ago

The new tricks seem to be "ultrathink" and "you are a rock star software architect". That's not the stuff careers are made of.

RugnirViking 4mo ago
you are not successfully riding the wave if you think prompting better is what they're talking about. They're talking about understanding the social structures your work happens in, how they're changing, and learning what you need to to be successful in that. Product and dev are getting closer together. Reviewing is becoming more important (and people don't have good theories about how to review, maybe you can make them.). New processes - and roles! are being created to deal with the vastly increased amounts of code produced, and the increased need for documentation and verification. Performance isn't a strong suit of the AIs, they get too rigidly stuck in existing architectures and fancy tricks, and often miss low hanging fruit that requires going and talking to some people to change the system. If you've got a statistics brain then metrics, logging and verification are booming (never met a manager who doesn't love a CHART). QA and testing are also bottlenecks of the new system, and unlikely to go away soon (ai can make tests, but it can't take the responsibility to say "this will work in production". You can!)

ramblerman 4mo ago

That's good advice to stay employable. But I used to enjoy learning - I think most of us did. The existential crisis many are experiencing is about the lack of fulfilment in rolling an LLM slot machine all day in an already dopamine depleting environment.

holtkam2 4mo ago

This is the way. But also - keep your head up - your mindset matters more than you think. If you consider yourself a victim of your circumstances with no agency, this will be harder for you. So get your mentality right. Something along the lines of 'this is an exciting new era and I'm well prepared to master this new domain like I have many times before'.