5 ms·

> REASON 1 This just means "simpler representations are not enough", not "good representations cannot be complex combinatorial combinations" (complex enough th

by cauch 4mo ago

> REASON 1 This just means "simpler representations are not enough", not "good representations cannot be complex combinatorial combinations" (complex enough that it is very different to see them for a human). > REASON 2 Are you saying that I believe that the only way to get human-like text is by doing a near-infinite one-to-one mapping? This is obviously not the case. You can do, for example, a GAM time-series forecast. This can have a relatively low number of weight, and still return very sensible prediction, and yet not capture the real understanding of the phenomenon they will predict. For example, it does not understand causality, just correlation. > REASON 3 That is like saying "I've built and algorithm that is able to do 10 + 27, but there is an infinite list of number, so it is impossible for this algorithm to do 23113454453 + 1233253245". That is not true, you just decompose into (53+45), (44+32), ... and add rules to combine these elements together. It is what is happening with AI: there is enough data to get "some pattern" in the language. Just the patterns, not the understanding of the language itself. And this pattern can be reproduced in plenty of different places. > REASON 4 This argument is contradicted by "basic LLM" or even simpler model that are performing surprisingly well. Less than SOTA, but if your argument is true, CNN or ARIMAX could never provide better than a coin toss. > REASON 5 Your example is a good place where the AI will _combine_ patterns learnt from different place. It will pick characteristics of each of your scenarios, and mix them together. The result will look realistic, but it is still applying learnt pattern together. Also, you did not answered about my human arithmetic, and all your reasons are contradicted by my example there. Humans DO maths partially because they "learnt by hearth" some pattern rather than apply the understanding of fundamental arithmetic. If "answering very well based on pattern" was not a good strategy, or was necessitating infinite weights, or was making it impossible to use these patterns in novel situation, how do you explain that human can even do that themselves? As soon as we admit that humans do "some pattern some times", than we have to admit that there is a continuous spectrum and admit that it allows output that looks realistic being the result of pattern rather than understanding. By the way, I just saw a new article reaching HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48410427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48410427 , and it is indeed explaining similar things, and illustrates that the best way for SOTA to deal with arithmetic is by "not understanding it". And yet, when you use one of those SOTA, you would be able to argue each one of your "REASON" to pretend that the model did understood arithmetic.

Nevermark 4mo ago
I am not sure what you mean by complex combinatorial. If we are talking about combinatorial, its combinatorial. N can be very large, but it is going to scale like combinatorial, not something else. I just started out with mapping to be systematic. Mapping is ground zero, then interpolation i.e. any smooth fitting function or basis, then combinatorial where different bases are recognized and then project relative to their relevance to a new input. Each of those increase modeling efficiency and power, but even combinatorial doesn't scale to problems like language. I may be doing a poor job communicating. A formal breakdown of the scaling issues with lower order, but scaled to make up for it, modeling would be a great paper. To prove me wrong (as a thought experiment), choose a lower order model, any kind you can imagine that would qualify as modeling without understanding. Demonstrate it can do anything close. That it could possibly scale to the human corpus with just a trillion parameters. If it the number of parameters goes up far too fast, then that can't be the way deep learning solves the problem with a trillion, or a few billion, either. And consider the other side. We have no idea how our own brains are lifting up what is relevant vs. what is not. We are used to it happening. We call it "understanding". But we don't know how it works, how we work. Despite experiencing it. What we do know, because combinatorial is too resource intensive, is we are not just combinatorial either.
- cauch 4mo ago
  > I am not sure what you mean by complex combinatorial. If we are talking about combinatorial, its combinatorial. N can be very large, but it is going to scale like combinatorial, not something else. The way a LLM works is by creating a space of N dimensions, N being the number of token. This space contains all the possible combinations. The LLM will find the best combination, but will not scan the whole space. To find the best combination, it will minimize the loss function, which is low when the output corresponds to the target. By doing so, it will not explore the combination that "goes in the wrong direction", and therefore it is not true to say that increasing the space as a scale S corresponds to increasing the difficulty of running the model by a scale S. Because of that, while the combination space scales like combinatorial, the model does not. A model with 2 weights (or rather tokens, but the number of weights should be at least the number of tokens) corresponds to 4 combinations (AA, AB, BA, BB can indeed be described by 2 binary weights of value "A" or "B"). A model with 3 weights corresponds to 9 combinations. A model with 4 weights corresponds to 16 combinations. ... A model with N weights corresponds to N to the power N combinations. The number of combination increases a lot, and yet the number of weights increase linearly. In SOTA, we have billions of weights. That is a model that contains a very very very very big number of combinations, something so big that it is difficult to understand for a human. It will not try all of these combination one by one, the gradient descend method will help it finding the best combination without having to do so. So, yes, SOTA are finding "the best combination" amongst an impressively huge number of combinations, yet without having to "scale like combinatorial". > To prove me wrong (as a thought experiment), choose a lower order model, any kind you can imagine that would qualify as modeling without understanding. Demonstrate it can do anything close. That it could possibly scale to the human corpus with just a trillion parameters. Yes. Easy. A SOTA LLM does that. It is a modeling without understanding. It does not understand, it finds the best patterns. And when you put it in a new situation, it uses these patterns to create a new text, without truly understanding the content of the text. And if you ask an additional question, it will use the previous text as context, and create a new text that, as it has been trained to, will be consistent with the output that has been given. Your assertion "you can prove me wrong" is a circular reasoning: you start saying "if a model can do a text that looks realistic to me, then it means it has understanding. To prove me wrong, give me a text that looks realistic to me and has no understanding". Well, I cannot do that, because for you, if it looks realistic, it has to have understanding. > If it the number of parameters goes up far too fast, then that can't be the way deep learning solves the problem with a trillion, or a few billion, either. The combination space grows as N to the power N. So, a trillion parameters is not "just 1000 times bigger" than a billion parameters, but more than 1000 to the power of one billion bigger (the exact value is often even bigger than that). Do you realise the size of the combination space? That is 1 followed by 3 times one billion zeroes. > What we do know, because combinatorial is too resource intensive, is we are not just combinatorial either. I think you don't understand how LLM works: the find the best combinations in a incredibly huge parameter space, but don't need to explore the whole space, just the 1-dimension manifold that is the curve that follow the gradient descend within this huge combination space. There are plenty of clues that SOTA don't "understand". For example, did you notice that SOTA happens to understand what human understand, and don't understand what human don't understand. If indeed the way SOTA works would be by "discovering the true mechanism", it means that it would discover with equal probability mechanisms that humans have already noticed and mechanisms that humans have not already noticed yet. For example, humans know that the Standard Model of particle physics is incomplete, and there are plenty of texts and books about that that the SOTA learnt about. Yet, SOTA did not "understood" the underlying mechanism that explain particle physics. It does not really know what an electron is by "making sense of what this object does", it only knows it as "a language word that can be used in some context in a specific way". And, sure, SOTA is helping with new discoveries, but the way it does it is by using "reasoning" approach. If indeed SOTA creates its own understanding when learning the human language, then it should have the new discovery after the learning, without using any "reasoning" approach, because it would be something that it has already understood.

by cauch 4mo ago

Nevermark 4mo ago

I am not sure what you mean by complex combinatorial. If we are talking about combinatorial, its combinatorial. N can be very large, but it is going to scale like combinatorial, not something else. I just started out with mapping to be systematic. Mapping is ground zero, then interpolation i.e. any smooth fitting function or basis, then combinatorial where different bases are recognized and then project relative to their relevance to a new input. Each of those increase modeling efficiency and power, but even combinatorial doesn't scale to problems like language. I may be doing a poor job communicating. A formal breakdown of the scaling issues with lower order, but scaled to make up for it, modeling would be a great paper. To prove me wrong (as a thought experiment), choose a lower order model, any kind you can imagine that would qualify as modeling without understanding. Demonstrate it can do anything close. That it could possibly scale to the human corpus with just a trillion parameters. If it the number of parameters goes up far too fast, then that can't be the way deep learning solves the problem with a trillion, or a few billion, either. And consider the other side. We have no idea how our own brains are lifting up what is relevant vs. what is not. We are used to it happening. We call it "understanding". But we don't know how it works, how we work. Despite experiencing it. What we do know, because combinatorial is too resource intensive, is we are not just combinatorial either.

cauch 4mo ago
> I am not sure what you mean by complex combinatorial. If we are talking about combinatorial, its combinatorial. N can be very large, but it is going to scale like combinatorial, not something else. The way a LLM works is by creating a space of N dimensions, N being the number of token. This space contains all the possible combinations. The LLM will find the best combination, but will not scan the whole space. To find the best combination, it will minimize the loss function, which is low when the output corresponds to the target. By doing so, it will not explore the combination that "goes in the wrong direction", and therefore it is not true to say that increasing the space as a scale S corresponds to increasing the difficulty of running the model by a scale S. Because of that, while the combination space scales like combinatorial, the model does not. A model with 2 weights (or rather tokens, but the number of weights should be at least the number of tokens) corresponds to 4 combinations (AA, AB, BA, BB can indeed be described by 2 binary weights of value "A" or "B"). A model with 3 weights corresponds to 9 combinations. A model with 4 weights corresponds to 16 combinations. ... A model with N weights corresponds to N to the power N combinations. The number of combination increases a lot, and yet the number of weights increase linearly. In SOTA, we have billions of weights. That is a model that contains a very very very very big number of combinations, something so big that it is difficult to understand for a human. It will not try all of these combination one by one, the gradient descend method will help it finding the best combination without having to do so. So, yes, SOTA are finding "the best combination" amongst an impressively huge number of combinations, yet without having to "scale like combinatorial". > To prove me wrong (as a thought experiment), choose a lower order model, any kind you can imagine that would qualify as modeling without understanding. Demonstrate it can do anything close. That it could possibly scale to the human corpus with just a trillion parameters. Yes. Easy. A SOTA LLM does that. It is a modeling without understanding. It does not understand, it finds the best patterns. And when you put it in a new situation, it uses these patterns to create a new text, without truly understanding the content of the text. And if you ask an additional question, it will use the previous text as context, and create a new text that, as it has been trained to, will be consistent with the output that has been given. Your assertion "you can prove me wrong" is a circular reasoning: you start saying "if a model can do a text that looks realistic to me, then it means it has understanding. To prove me wrong, give me a text that looks realistic to me and has no understanding". Well, I cannot do that, because for you, if it looks realistic, it has to have understanding. > If it the number of parameters goes up far too fast, then that can't be the way deep learning solves the problem with a trillion, or a few billion, either. The combination space grows as N to the power N. So, a trillion parameters is not "just 1000 times bigger" than a billion parameters, but more than 1000 to the power of one billion bigger (the exact value is often even bigger than that). Do you realise the size of the combination space? That is 1 followed by 3 times one billion zeroes. > What we do know, because combinatorial is too resource intensive, is we are not just combinatorial either. I think you don't understand how LLM works: the find the best combinations in a incredibly huge parameter space, but don't need to explore the whole space, just the 1-dimension manifold that is the curve that follow the gradient descend within this huge combination space. There are plenty of clues that SOTA don't "understand". For example, did you notice that SOTA happens to understand what human understand, and don't understand what human don't understand. If indeed the way SOTA works would be by "discovering the true mechanism", it means that it would discover with equal probability mechanisms that humans have already noticed and mechanisms that humans have not already noticed yet. For example, humans know that the Standard Model of particle physics is incomplete, and there are plenty of texts and books about that that the SOTA learnt about. Yet, SOTA did not "understood" the underlying mechanism that explain particle physics. It does not really know what an electron is by "making sense of what this object does", it only knows it as "a language word that can be used in some context in a specific way". And, sure, SOTA is helping with new discoveries, but the way it does it is by using "reasoning" approach. If indeed SOTA creates its own understanding when learning the human language, then it should have the new discovery after the learning, without using any "reasoning" approach, because it would be something that it has already understood.