4 ms·

It does seem to be common to make LDS not counted as Christianity, although the reason is unclear to me. Another comment mentions that the rejection of the Nic

It does seem to be common to make LDS not counted as Christianity, although the reason is unclear to me. Another comment mentions that the rejection of the Nicene Creed does not seem to be the distinction. I had thought that it is because they have the Book of Mormon, although that is unclear. Orthodox have additional books of the Bible that Catholics do not have, but are still Christian. (Although, I think the additional books that the Orthodox have are still a part of the Bible, and Book of Mormon is different.) Something that I had heard is that it is because Mormons use a different baptism, which is not Trinitarian. However, it seems that it is Trinitarian, although this trinity is different from that of Christians (even though they still say "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit"). Quakers (which are listed as Christian) also apparently do not use baptism (and reject other sacraments as well). Although the Religious Society of Friends is Christian, they do have differences and not all Quakers are necessarily Christian (or necessarily theists). So, I don't know.

thesuperbigfrog 4mo ago
>> Something that I had heard is that it is because Mormons use a different baptism, which is not Trinitarian. However, it seems that it is Trinitarian, although this trinity is different from that of Christians (even though they still say "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit"). I had not heard that so I looked it up: ----------- Catholic baptism: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The matter is the water poured over the head of the recipient. Traditionally, the one being baptized has water poured over them or is fully emerged in water three times. Source: https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/the-ultimate-guide-to-catholic-baptism https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/the-ultimate-guide... (Some) Protestant baptism: Each candidate is presented by name to the Celebrant, or to an assisting priest or deacon, who then immerses, or pours water upon, the candidate, saying N., I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Source: https://www.bcponline.org/Baptism/holybaptism.html https://www.bcponline.org/Baptism/holybaptism.html (Some groups do it differently, but this seems to be common.) Mormon baptism: 73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. 74 Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water. Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20?lang=eng&id=p73#p73 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-test... ----------- I am not an expert, but they all seem mostly the same to me?
- zzo38computer 4mo ago
  Yes, I had seemed to remember something different but I looked it up and yes it is still trinitarian, although apparently the working of the trinity is different (although this different working of the trinity is not apparent by the words of the baptism) which allegedly makes it not a valid Christian baptism (according to some Christians, including the Catholic church).
jltsiren 4mo ago
Look at the text of the Nicene Creed. There is a phrase that reads, depending on the translation, something like "one holy catholic apostolic church". That is the core of the issue. All mainstream Christian denominations are branches of that original church. Some may see each other heretical, but they still acknowledge the common heritage. If you now have a religion that takes some aspects of Christianity, adds something of its own, and rejects the part all those schismatic branches agree on, it does not look like you are a branch of that "one holy catholic apostolic church". The same applies to Jehovah's Witnesses.
- zzo38computer 4mo ago
  Your reasoning makes sense. However, it is not quite that simple. As another comment mentioned, "and yet Jehovah's Witnesses are denoted on the list as a Christian faith". So are Quakers (also denoted on the list as Christian), which (as far as I can tell) have no creed ; and, furthermore, although the Religious Society of Friends is Christian, not all Quakers are necessarily Christian (there are people of other religions as well, as well as those of no religion). This does not seem to be specific to the DoD list; I have seen this in other lists as well.
Slothrop99 4mo ago
> although the reason is unclear to me Not at all complicated, you don't get to add another book to the bible and claim to be the same religion. I grew up in a very liberal christian church. Their take on mormons was "really nice people .. still heretics". Obviously there are bigger problems out there.
- zzo38computer 4mo ago
  As I understand, LDS did not add another book to the Bible; Book of Mormon is not a part of the Bible, although (as far as I know) still considered a scripture according to LDS. (Nevertheless it is the reason I had thought of too (many years ago), although other people have cited different reasons.)
  - Slothrop99 4mo ago
    Well, the New Testament (what Christians care about) is entirely set in the historical first century Roman Empire [0], all places are accurate and known to exist. The Book of Mormon postulates some fantasy world perhaps not unlike Middle Earth? And also weird theological stuff from 19th century science-fiction? Sorry, that is a different religion. [0] expect for the last book of revelations of the future.
    - Daviey 4mo ago
      Why do you feel it is outsiders role to tell them they are not Christians, surely it's their role to self-determine?
      - Slothrop99 4mo ago
        Why do you feel that most christian sects cannot decide they are heretics? We're not talking about some Lutheran Synod politics BS, they have this whole fantasy/scifi book and theology. Obviously it's a free country, so they can say whatever they want.
  - siliconpotato 4mo ago
pseudalopex 4mo ago
Trinity means the 3 are 1.[1] Mormons believe the 3 are separate.[2] Baptism does not mean water baptism exclusively.[3] What other sacraments did the Nicene creed mention? The purpose of the new list was to exclude many groups. Christian Quakers exist does not mean non Christian Quakers do not exist. And the category was copied from an older list without much thought plausibly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity [2] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/article/do-latter-day-saints-believe-in-the-trinity https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/article/d... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit

thesuperbigfrog 4mo ago

>> Something that I had heard is that it is because Mormons use a different baptism, which is not Trinitarian. However, it seems that it is Trinitarian, although this trinity is different from that of Christians (even though they still say "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit"). I had not heard that so I looked it up: ----------- Catholic baptism: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The matter is the water poured over the head of the recipient. Traditionally, the one being baptized has water poured over them or is fully emerged in water three times. Source: https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/the-ultimate-guide-to-catholic-baptism https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/the-ultimate-guide... (Some) Protestant baptism: Each candidate is presented by name to the Celebrant, or to an assisting priest or deacon, who then immerses, or pours water upon, the candidate, saying N., I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Source: https://www.bcponline.org/Baptism/holybaptism.html https://www.bcponline.org/Baptism/holybaptism.html (Some groups do it differently, but this seems to be common.) Mormon baptism: 73 The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. 74 Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water. Source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20?lang=eng&id=p73#p73 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-test... ----------- I am not an expert, but they all seem mostly the same to me?

zzo38computer 4mo ago
Yes, I had seemed to remember something different but I looked it up and yes it is still trinitarian, although apparently the working of the trinity is different (although this different working of the trinity is not apparent by the words of the baptism) which allegedly makes it not a valid Christian baptism (according to some Christians, including the Catholic church).

jltsiren 4mo ago

Look at the text of the Nicene Creed. There is a phrase that reads, depending on the translation, something like "one holy catholic apostolic church". That is the core of the issue. All mainstream Christian denominations are branches of that original church. Some may see each other heretical, but they still acknowledge the common heritage. If you now have a religion that takes some aspects of Christianity, adds something of its own, and rejects the part all those schismatic branches agree on, it does not look like you are a branch of that "one holy catholic apostolic church". The same applies to Jehovah's Witnesses.

zzo38computer 4mo ago
Your reasoning makes sense. However, it is not quite that simple. As another comment mentioned, "and yet Jehovah's Witnesses are denoted on the list as a Christian faith". So are Quakers (also denoted on the list as Christian), which (as far as I can tell) have no creed ; and, furthermore, although the Religious Society of Friends is Christian, not all Quakers are necessarily Christian (there are people of other religions as well, as well as those of no religion). This does not seem to be specific to the DoD list; I have seen this in other lists as well.

Slothrop99 4mo ago

> although the reason is unclear to me Not at all complicated, you don't get to add another book to the bible and claim to be the same religion. I grew up in a very liberal christian church. Their take on mormons was "really nice people .. still heretics". Obviously there are bigger problems out there.

zzo38computer 4mo ago
As I understand, LDS did not add another book to the Bible; Book of Mormon is not a part of the Bible, although (as far as I know) still considered a scripture according to LDS. (Nevertheless it is the reason I had thought of too (many years ago), although other people have cited different reasons.)
- Slothrop99 4mo ago
  Well, the New Testament (what Christians care about) is entirely set in the historical first century Roman Empire [0], all places are accurate and known to exist. The Book of Mormon postulates some fantasy world perhaps not unlike Middle Earth? And also weird theological stuff from 19th century science-fiction? Sorry, that is a different religion. [0] expect for the last book of revelations of the future.
  - Daviey 4mo ago
    Why do you feel it is outsiders role to tell them they are not Christians, surely it's their role to self-determine?
    - Slothrop99 4mo ago
      Why do you feel that most christian sects cannot decide they are heretics? We're not talking about some Lutheran Synod politics BS, they have this whole fantasy/scifi book and theology. Obviously it's a free country, so they can say whatever they want.
- siliconpotato 4mo ago

pseudalopex 4mo ago

Trinity means the 3 are 1.[1] Mormons believe the 3 are separate.[2] Baptism does not mean water baptism exclusively.[3] What other sacraments did the Nicene creed mention? The purpose of the new list was to exclude many groups. Christian Quakers exist does not mean non Christian Quakers do not exist. And the category was copied from an older list without much thought plausibly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity [2] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/article/do-latter-day-saints-believe-in-the-trinity https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/article/d... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit