3 ms·

The argument that H1-B workers are bad for America is, IMO, completely irrational. Whoever is in support of this argument is implying that people who are smart

The argument that H1-B workers are bad for America is, IMO, completely irrational. Whoever is in support of this argument is implying that people who are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations[1] in America, or have made it to one of the top American universites, are bad for the country. I'll repeat that for effect: smart people are bad for America. WTF? Let's look at the situation from my POV, just for laughs. I'm an Indian. I've been playing with technology since I was 13. I've spent hundereds of hours of my life learning how to program and cooking up small scripts and apps for simple tasks. I've spent sleepless nights trying to get a Linux install working. I've ignored school, college and exams because I wanted to be the first one to solve some programming puzzle online. Why? Because I'm passionate about programming. I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India. The argument that immigrants are hurting America implies that America should just show the finger to me and give that smart job to someone who doesn't really enjoy doing it[3] just because that guy was born in America and I was born in India. "" Enjoy having your standard of living averaged with the Third World. "" Reading that statement just makes me sad. [1] : I mean a really good job at, say, Google. Nobody leaves India thinking, "I'm going to found a Web 2.0 startup in America.". [2] : ... or start up a company. Not sure about how friendly India is to startups compared to America. There have certainly been many tech startups sprouting up in India in the past few years, but what they had to do to get where they are is still unclear. [3] : This is not to imply that Americans are stupid. This is just a hypothetical situation.

dmolnar 18y ago
Responding to your footnote [2], it would be interesting to hear what obstacles are in the way of doing a start-up in India. Are they the kind of things that can be worked around once and then the effort amortized over multiple start-up companies? If so, maybe there is an opportunity for something like YC in India that guides early stage people through the hoops required to start their own companies.
- braindead_in 18y ago
  They are YC clones coming up all over here. Some of them invest, some dont. But none of them have anybody's of PG's stature behind them. So dunno whether any of them will ever succeed. IMHO, incubators are a bit too early for the Indian ecosystem. Is very immature right now. Especially for first time entrepreneurs. Severe lack of talent and mentorship, angels are few and far between, Series A or further rounds, if you make it that far, happen at low valuations and successful exits are very rare. Add to that the very low internet penetration rate here. So focusing on the Indian market is a non starter. If you are targeting the global market, then its best to take advantage of the valley ecosystem. Eventually you'll have to have an office there if you want to succeed.
ryuio 18y ago
Not to counter your argument against H1B visa, but parts of your arguments are based on inaccurate prejudiced data. 1. "people who are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations" - Not all H1B's work in top corporations, not all H1B's who work in top corporations do 'smart' work, not all employees of top corporations do smart work. 2. "I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India." - Most 'top' corporations have offices in India - where a lot of smart people do smart stuff. Not all of them do it because they dont have an option of going to the US. A lot of them do it because they are happy staying in India. Please stop twisting facts to rationalize your motivations.
nebula 18y ago
I broadly agree with your sentiment that H1-B workers may not be bad for America. But I disagree with your line of argument. Even if I grant your hypothesis on the smartness of H1-B workers, it doesn't necessarily mean a value addition to America, especially if there are equally smart Americans available to do the job. There might be other value additions though: people with diverse backgrounds generally means people with different ways of looking at a challenge, which is generally a good thing if your team trying to solve hard problems.
geebee 18y ago
I disagree that people who oppose the H1B visa are committed to the claim that "smart people are bad for America." Most of the arguments against the H1B are based on the notion that many of the workers are rank and file, that they are overly concentrated in a few fields, and that they are preferred to Americans due to their indentured status. I think that your first claim "smart people" is an ambiguous argument. H1Bs do not enter all fields equally, largely because of the visa requirements and uneven licensing and regulation of these fields. My biggest concern is that if the US protects legal jobs, but issues hundred of thousands of visas to foreign nationals in engineering, then we will create circumstances where US citizens are deterred from entering engineering - not because of markets, but because of misguided regulation. A lot of people opposed to the H1B would drop this opposition if they believed that it wasn't specifically targeting engineering and technical professions. As it stands, I think that the US is (perhaps unintentionally) pursuing a policy that greatly discourages its own citizens from pursuing graduate engineering degrees and strongly encourages them to go into law or more protected fields. Another thing I disagree with is the notion that H1Bs are a highly talented group of people across the board. This isn't a knock on H1B's - I just don't believe that there are 200K talented engineers out there for the taking. I'd say that no more than 20K are really tops, and yeah, we definitely want those folks here. But otherwise, many are rank and file run of the mill technical workers. I do know an American woman who, at age 50, was "downsized" and offered a severance and an additional 6 months of a paycheck in the condition that she assist with "knowledge transfer" to the new team of H1B's. She sat down to show one of the workers the DB schema, and another new H1B worker attended the meeting as well to learn. Wanting to learn is an admirable quality, but he didn't know anything about databases, and in fact, his degree was in soil science. To me, this was a clear case of displacement - and the loss of an opportunity to train a US citizen in a new technology. A big part of how you feel about the H1B depends on whether you think that the US is getting two hundred thousand entrepreneurial geniuses or ordinary people who are motivated and looking for a job. If it's the former, I'd love to see a visa that not only brings them into the country, but allows total freedom and autonomy once they are here (ie., the visa is awarded directly to the individual with no conditions about how and where he/she will work). If it's the latter, I don't have any real problem with that person coming here, but I see no reason why we should have special visa instead of just using the standard immigration system (which brings in well over a million immigrants a year to the US anyway). I also take a dimmer view of population growth in California than many people do. Traffic, sprawl, housing prices, and the loss of open space has become a serious problem in California. While a small number of highly talented people would add far more than we'd lose, I don't feel the same way about massive numbers of merely above average workers. And is it such a big deal if Indians innovate in India? A lot of Indians live in poverty, and from what I read, there is a lot of entrepreneurial activity going on. I've never agreed with the notion that I should feel threatened by Indian prosperity. Why do we need to cram all the software developers in the world into San Francisco/Silicon Valley area? Nothing wrong with trade.

dmolnar 18y ago

Responding to your footnote [2], it would be interesting to hear what obstacles are in the way of doing a start-up in India. Are they the kind of things that can be worked around once and then the effort amortized over multiple start-up companies? If so, maybe there is an opportunity for something like YC in India that guides early stage people through the hoops required to start their own companies.

braindead_in 18y ago
They are YC clones coming up all over here. Some of them invest, some dont. But none of them have anybody's of PG's stature behind them. So dunno whether any of them will ever succeed. IMHO, incubators are a bit too early for the Indian ecosystem. Is very immature right now. Especially for first time entrepreneurs. Severe lack of talent and mentorship, angels are few and far between, Series A or further rounds, if you make it that far, happen at low valuations and successful exits are very rare. Add to that the very low internet penetration rate here. So focusing on the Indian market is a non starter. If you are targeting the global market, then its best to take advantage of the valley ecosystem. Eventually you'll have to have an office there if you want to succeed.

ryuio 18y ago

Not to counter your argument against H1B visa, but parts of your arguments are based on inaccurate prejudiced data. 1. "people who are smart enough to get jobs in some of the top corporations" - Not all H1B's work in top corporations, not all H1B's who work in top corporations do 'smart' work, not all employees of top corporations do smart work. 2. "I want get a job doing smart stuff for a smart employer[2], and I don't expect to get that job in India." - Most 'top' corporations have offices in India - where a lot of smart people do smart stuff. Not all of them do it because they dont have an option of going to the US. A lot of them do it because they are happy staying in India. Please stop twisting facts to rationalize your motivations.

nebula 18y ago

I broadly agree with your sentiment that H1-B workers may not be bad for America. But I disagree with your line of argument. Even if I grant your hypothesis on the smartness of H1-B workers, it doesn't necessarily mean a value addition to America, especially if there are equally smart Americans available to do the job. There might be other value additions though: people with diverse backgrounds generally means people with different ways of looking at a challenge, which is generally a good thing if your team trying to solve hard problems.

geebee 18y ago

I disagree that people who oppose the H1B visa are committed to the claim that "smart people are bad for America." Most of the arguments against the H1B are based on the notion that many of the workers are rank and file, that they are overly concentrated in a few fields, and that they are preferred to Americans due to their indentured status. I think that your first claim "smart people" is an ambiguous argument. H1Bs do not enter all fields equally, largely because of the visa requirements and uneven licensing and regulation of these fields. My biggest concern is that if the US protects legal jobs, but issues hundred of thousands of visas to foreign nationals in engineering, then we will create circumstances where US citizens are deterred from entering engineering - not because of markets, but because of misguided regulation. A lot of people opposed to the H1B would drop this opposition if they believed that it wasn't specifically targeting engineering and technical professions. As it stands, I think that the US is (perhaps unintentionally) pursuing a policy that greatly discourages its own citizens from pursuing graduate engineering degrees and strongly encourages them to go into law or more protected fields. Another thing I disagree with is the notion that H1Bs are a highly talented group of people across the board. This isn't a knock on H1B's - I just don't believe that there are 200K talented engineers out there for the taking. I'd say that no more than 20K are really tops, and yeah, we definitely want those folks here. But otherwise, many are rank and file run of the mill technical workers. I do know an American woman who, at age 50, was "downsized" and offered a severance and an additional 6 months of a paycheck in the condition that she assist with "knowledge transfer" to the new team of H1B's. She sat down to show one of the workers the DB schema, and another new H1B worker attended the meeting as well to learn. Wanting to learn is an admirable quality, but he didn't know anything about databases, and in fact, his degree was in soil science. To me, this was a clear case of displacement - and the loss of an opportunity to train a US citizen in a new technology. A big part of how you feel about the H1B depends on whether you think that the US is getting two hundred thousand entrepreneurial geniuses or ordinary people who are motivated and looking for a job. If it's the former, I'd love to see a visa that not only brings them into the country, but allows total freedom and autonomy once they are here (ie., the visa is awarded directly to the individual with no conditions about how and where he/she will work). If it's the latter, I don't have any real problem with that person coming here, but I see no reason why we should have special visa instead of just using the standard immigration system (which brings in well over a million immigrants a year to the US anyway). I also take a dimmer view of population growth in California than many people do. Traffic, sprawl, housing prices, and the loss of open space has become a serious problem in California. While a small number of highly talented people would add far more than we'd lose, I don't feel the same way about massive numbers of merely above average workers. And is it such a big deal if Indians innovate in India? A lot of Indians live in poverty, and from what I read, there is a lot of entrepreneurial activity going on. I've never agreed with the notion that I should feel threatened by Indian prosperity. Why do we need to cram all the software developers in the world into San Francisco/Silicon Valley area? Nothing wrong with trade.