6 ms·

Is your problem with them that they're synthetic, or that it's nicotine? Pouched tobacco like that been used for decades in some places in the world, or even wi

Is your problem with them that they're synthetic, or that it's nicotine? Pouched tobacco like that been used for decades in some places in the world, or even without pouches, just making your own ball and sticking the tobacco under your lip. I'm not sure these countries have a higher rate of GI/gut problems than other places, which kind of would invalidate your entire argument here.

DanielHB 5mo ago
Snus (tobacco pouches you put under your gums) is super popular in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus It is basically the same thing but not synthetic. Supposedly nicotin pouches are not as harmful because they do not have tobacco leaves. I am a bit ambivalent about it, on one hand people don't smoke as much because snus which means I don't get as much second hand smoke. On the other hand it is WAY easier for kids to get started on it as they don't need to hide it after they put it in their mouths. I know a few people who are heavily addicted to it (one even keeps one in when he is sleeping) and they all started in their early teens.
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  Exactly what I'm talking about, just didn't want to name it by name as people have a lot of preconceived notions about it that pops up as soon as you say "snus", for some reason.
  - DanielHB 5mo ago
    I never heard about it causing GI problems, but snus definitely causes major teeth and gum problems. The guy I mentioned had his gums receded completely, he once showed it to me. It was very bizarre. Also see this other comment on this thread about this issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48411778 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48411778
gwbas1c 5mo ago
The problems with chewing tobacco are well-known. BTW, colon cancer is rising among men in their 40s, and there is no known reason why.
- v64 5mo ago
  Those problems are because of the tobacco. Zyn packets et al are just nicotine, and nicotine itself has not been shown to be a carcinogen.
  - gwbas1c 5mo ago
    At this point, I wouldn't assume that any nicotine delivery system is safe. IE, e-cigarettes used to be promoted as safe, until the popcorn lung incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans#E-cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans#E-cig... (TLDR, some e-cigarettes used diacetyl as a flavoring, which is safe to eat but very toxic to inhale.) (Kinda stinks because nicotine is a cool drug.)
    - mapt 5mo ago
      The lipid pneumonia outbreak was a thing exclusively associated with THC vapes, which are an illegal but widespread cottage (garage) industry where one summer, one of the thousands of manufacturer-enthusiasts made a forum post about the innovation of maybe using vitamin E acetate as a thickener. Experiments were performed, positive results were obtained, and products went out to distributors. The hazard to heavy users (perhaps for manufacturers with poor blending practices, we don't know) who showed up in the ER, was recognized within a month or two, and everybody immediately stopped using vitamin E acetate as a thickener. It took most of a year of panic for the last of that summer's merchandise to percolate through the supply chain. The outbreak was initially hard for users to trace in particular because of how brands worked in that (again, moderately illegal) industry - a "brand" was basically a paper label/bag production line shipped in the clear from a printer, to hundreds of individual manufacturers, who negotiated their own distribution. Conclusions like "Mellow Mallow Blurple is a safe brand, I tested it" ended up being invalid.
throwaway173738 5mo ago
You customarily spit out that saliva that’s been in contact with your dip. Swallowing it is way worse for you. When I framed houses the guys that chewed would leave a little trail of brown spots everywhere.
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  > You customarily spit out that saliva that’s been in contact with your dip I don't think this is necessarily true everywhere/for everyone, it's really not common in Sweden to walk around spitting just because you have tobacco under your lip, as people sit in offices and stuff with this in their mouth, can't really go around a spit indoors.
  - vel0city 5mo ago
    I can't speak for Sweden (I've never been), but typically all the people I've known in the US who dip regularly can be found with some kind of fast food cup they carry around with them as their "dip cup". It'll look like they're just taking a swig of some random drink, but in reality they're spitting.
    - embedding-shape 5mo ago
      Yeah, that used to be common in the rural/country-side maybe 30 years ago or so in Sweden, you'll see zero people walking around in offices spitting in cups in Sweden today, although tons of people use (synthetic and non-synthetic) snus all the time.
    - esseph 5mo ago
      I used to have a high school teacher that would make half a cup of coffee in the morning and then "sip" it throughout the day (to spit in).
- esseph 5mo ago
  Dip, yes. Although I knew guys that swallowed the dip spit (insane). The Snus saliva (actual snus) just gets swallowed. Same with Zyn and others.
seethishat 5mo ago
My problem is it is an experiment (synthetic nicotine that is socially acceptable) and kids are addicted to it. It's like candy. No one knows or complains because the users are not generating smoke, vapor or spit. They just swallow the synthetic nicotine. Yes, people have used tobacco products for a long time. However, they have not sucked on them like candy and swallowed the contents 16 hours a day. They spit, exhaled, etc. Chewing tobacco and snuff are not acceptable and they ruin your teeth/gums. Smoking is not acceptable and it ruins your lungs/breathing ability. This stuff is socially OK, because no one can tell you are using it (no spit or smoke). Check out all the reports of GI issues on reddit (QuittingZyn). This stuff causes all sorts of GI issues from the top of the stomach to the bottom of the bowel.
- irishcoffee 5mo ago
  Zyn has been around for well over 10 years. We would be seeing this gut thing you talk of by now I would think.
  - deleted 5mo ago
    [deleted]
- embedding-shape 5mo ago
  > However, they have not sucked on them like candy and swallowed the contents 16 hours a day. Again, maybe not where you are, but there are definitively countries where both adults and children have tabacco under their lip for most of their waking hours, with no spitting or exhalation involved, as they're inside school/offices, can't really just spit there, even the non-synthetic stuff, as that's relatively new. Zyn is specifically synthetic isn't it? You still seem to be mostly focused on synthetic nicotine, but the same behavior been observed for many, many decades with non-synthetics too.
- mapt 5mo ago
  Spitting was necessary because swallowing tobacco represents an immediate, acute food poisoning issue due to the other chemicals present. It's also all sorts of cancerous, including to the mouth, also due to those other chemicals. We developed, in Snus, an apparently cancer-free chewing tobacco. We developed, in Zyn, a cancer-free, hygienic chewing tobacco with fewer GI issues. We developed, in e-cigarettes / vapes, a cancer-free, COPD-free, carbon monoxide free cigarette. These should be regarded as public health miracles even if there remain some symptoms of partaking. If 80% of the population is addicted to Zyn or vapes but there are no smokers, you get far better health outcomes than a situation where 20% of the population are smoking and 5% are chewing.

DanielHB 5mo ago

Snus (tobacco pouches you put under your gums) is super popular in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus It is basically the same thing but not synthetic. Supposedly nicotin pouches are not as harmful because they do not have tobacco leaves. I am a bit ambivalent about it, on one hand people don't smoke as much because snus which means I don't get as much second hand smoke. On the other hand it is WAY easier for kids to get started on it as they don't need to hide it after they put it in their mouths. I know a few people who are heavily addicted to it (one even keeps one in when he is sleeping) and they all started in their early teens.

embedding-shape 5mo ago
Exactly what I'm talking about, just didn't want to name it by name as people have a lot of preconceived notions about it that pops up as soon as you say "snus", for some reason.
- DanielHB 5mo ago
  I never heard about it causing GI problems, but snus definitely causes major teeth and gum problems. The guy I mentioned had his gums receded completely, he once showed it to me. It was very bizarre. Also see this other comment on this thread about this issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48411778 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48411778

gwbas1c 5mo ago

The problems with chewing tobacco are well-known. BTW, colon cancer is rising among men in their 40s, and there is no known reason why.

v64 5mo ago
Those problems are because of the tobacco. Zyn packets et al are just nicotine, and nicotine itself has not been shown to be a carcinogen.
- gwbas1c 5mo ago
  At this point, I wouldn't assume that any nicotine delivery system is safe. IE, e-cigarettes used to be promoted as safe, until the popcorn lung incident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans#E-cigarettes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans#E-cig... (TLDR, some e-cigarettes used diacetyl as a flavoring, which is safe to eat but very toxic to inhale.) (Kinda stinks because nicotine is a cool drug.)
  - mapt 5mo ago
    The lipid pneumonia outbreak was a thing exclusively associated with THC vapes, which are an illegal but widespread cottage (garage) industry where one summer, one of the thousands of manufacturer-enthusiasts made a forum post about the innovation of maybe using vitamin E acetate as a thickener. Experiments were performed, positive results were obtained, and products went out to distributors. The hazard to heavy users (perhaps for manufacturers with poor blending practices, we don't know) who showed up in the ER, was recognized within a month or two, and everybody immediately stopped using vitamin E acetate as a thickener. It took most of a year of panic for the last of that summer's merchandise to percolate through the supply chain. The outbreak was initially hard for users to trace in particular because of how brands worked in that (again, moderately illegal) industry - a "brand" was basically a paper label/bag production line shipped in the clear from a printer, to hundreds of individual manufacturers, who negotiated their own distribution. Conclusions like "Mellow Mallow Blurple is a safe brand, I tested it" ended up being invalid.

throwaway173738 5mo ago

You customarily spit out that saliva that’s been in contact with your dip. Swallowing it is way worse for you. When I framed houses the guys that chewed would leave a little trail of brown spots everywhere.

embedding-shape 5mo ago
> You customarily spit out that saliva that’s been in contact with your dip I don't think this is necessarily true everywhere/for everyone, it's really not common in Sweden to walk around spitting just because you have tobacco under your lip, as people sit in offices and stuff with this in their mouth, can't really go around a spit indoors.
- vel0city 5mo ago
  I can't speak for Sweden (I've never been), but typically all the people I've known in the US who dip regularly can be found with some kind of fast food cup they carry around with them as their "dip cup". It'll look like they're just taking a swig of some random drink, but in reality they're spitting.
  - embedding-shape 5mo ago
    Yeah, that used to be common in the rural/country-side maybe 30 years ago or so in Sweden, you'll see zero people walking around in offices spitting in cups in Sweden today, although tons of people use (synthetic and non-synthetic) snus all the time.
  - esseph 5mo ago
    I used to have a high school teacher that would make half a cup of coffee in the morning and then "sip" it throughout the day (to spit in).
esseph 5mo ago
Dip, yes. Although I knew guys that swallowed the dip spit (insane). The Snus saliva (actual snus) just gets swallowed. Same with Zyn and others.

seethishat 5mo ago

My problem is it is an experiment (synthetic nicotine that is socially acceptable) and kids are addicted to it. It's like candy. No one knows or complains because the users are not generating smoke, vapor or spit. They just swallow the synthetic nicotine. Yes, people have used tobacco products for a long time. However, they have not sucked on them like candy and swallowed the contents 16 hours a day. They spit, exhaled, etc. Chewing tobacco and snuff are not acceptable and they ruin your teeth/gums. Smoking is not acceptable and it ruins your lungs/breathing ability. This stuff is socially OK, because no one can tell you are using it (no spit or smoke). Check out all the reports of GI issues on reddit (QuittingZyn). This stuff causes all sorts of GI issues from the top of the stomach to the bottom of the bowel.

irishcoffee 5mo ago
Zyn has been around for well over 10 years. We would be seeing this gut thing you talk of by now I would think.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
embedding-shape 5mo ago
> However, they have not sucked on them like candy and swallowed the contents 16 hours a day. Again, maybe not where you are, but there are definitively countries where both adults and children have tabacco under their lip for most of their waking hours, with no spitting or exhalation involved, as they're inside school/offices, can't really just spit there, even the non-synthetic stuff, as that's relatively new. Zyn is specifically synthetic isn't it? You still seem to be mostly focused on synthetic nicotine, but the same behavior been observed for many, many decades with non-synthetics too.
mapt 5mo ago
Spitting was necessary because swallowing tobacco represents an immediate, acute food poisoning issue due to the other chemicals present. It's also all sorts of cancerous, including to the mouth, also due to those other chemicals. We developed, in Snus, an apparently cancer-free chewing tobacco. We developed, in Zyn, a cancer-free, hygienic chewing tobacco with fewer GI issues. We developed, in e-cigarettes / vapes, a cancer-free, COPD-free, carbon monoxide free cigarette. These should be regarded as public health miracles even if there remain some symptoms of partaking. If 80% of the population is addicted to Zyn or vapes but there are no smokers, you get far better health outcomes than a situation where 20% of the population are smoking and 5% are chewing.