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There’s something lopsided about education for boys. The system appears to favor girls heavily. There’s projections that college student populations will have s

by pokstad 4mo ago

There’s something lopsided about education for boys. The system appears to favor girls heavily. There’s projections that college student populations will have shrinking male population. I think this is a systemic issue with school being built to favor a certain philosophy that isn’t well thought out for 50% of the population.

XorNot 4mo ago
What philosophy? The gender based outcomes people never seem able to come up with any coherent explanation of what they think the problem is other then to play to stereotypes.
- bilbo0s 4mo ago
  This. A math test is a math test is a math test. What's the math teacher supposed to do? I hate to be that guy, but I think it should be pointed out that asian boys don't seem to have much of a problem. If there's a gender bias, why do they succeed?
  - s5300 4mo ago
    [dead]
- rootusrootus 4mo ago
  The explanation that I’ve seen floated is behavioral. Boys are active and physical and don’t focus as easily as girls, who are more amenable to sitting quietly and paying attention. The idea is that the current predominant K12 style favors students in the latter behavior group. I have two kids in K12 and I don’t think it’s that simple. Not that I have a good explanation of my own, mind you.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - jplusequalt 4mo ago
    >who are more amenable to sitting quietly and paying attention Is this explanation not making a blatant assumption here that girls are statistically less hyperactive and distracted than boys?
    - rootusrootus 4mo ago
      Is that controversial (assuming otherwise normal children, excluding anybody with ADHD, etc)?
    - rocmcd 4mo ago
      "Hyperactive and distracted" is not necessarily the exact reason, but there is a large, well documented gap in performance for boys vs girls in elementary school (at least in the US).
- Avicebron 4mo ago
  > What philosophy? They might be referring to the TED Radio Hour "Beyond the manosphere" by Richard Reeves. I think it was on NPR a while ago, I looked it up because the "school isn't designed for boys but girls" sounded familiar.
- smelendez 4mo ago
  What confuses me is that the education system, especially the college track, was designed for men and boys. Lots of colleges didn’t even admit women, and they were largely excluded from learned professions like medicine, law, the ministry, engineering, etc. I haven’t really seen a good argument for what changed. I guess it’s possible that the school system was originally designed to teach young men skills, like quiet study and deference to authority, that women either learn more naturally or get reinforced in other contexts, and the schools no longer effectively teach those skills but still reward them.
rootusrootus 4mo ago
> projections that college student populations will have shrinking male population Projections? Aren’t we already there in reality? That future is today.
fasterik 4mo ago
It's not that the system favors a particular gender. The system favors personality traits like self-regulation, organization, and conscientiousness. These traits develop earlier on average in girls than in boys.
- parpfish 4mo ago
  i'm not sure if it's an issue of the educational system, but for at least several decades there has been a societal push to correct historical gender imbalances by encouraging girls to do well in school, go to college (especially STEM), get a career. This has resulted in kids seeing a lot of messaging along the lines of "Girl Power! Girls can do anything!". Which to an adult looks like a shift in the tides of history, but for one of the kids that's all they've ever seen and i think that has an effect.
  - fasterik 4mo ago
    It turns out that when you level the playing field, girls do better than boys. I don't think it's about the "girl power" nonsense, it's about the ability to sit down, focus on something, and produce work that meets a certain standard of achievement. I would say the more harmful slogan has been "you're okay just the way you are." I'm not saying we go back to harsh discipline and abuse, but there has to be a middle ground where we hold children, especially boys, to a higher standard.
    - TheOtherHobbes 4mo ago
      Boys have been sitting down, focusing, and producing work that meets a certain standard for most of recorded history. That ability is really not a uniquely feminine trait, and suggesting it is is honestly bizarre. Boys have also been doing more destructive things, but that's a different issue. Boys and girls do struggle with different issues socially and culturally, which is upstream of struggling with them academically. What's consistently missed that education is downstream of socialisation. The experience of learning as a first introduction to culture shapes consequences more than individual techniques do. Part of that is challenging all gender stereotypes. The traditional stereotype was that girls were frankly rather stupid and couldn't handle anything rigorous and challenging. Now the stereotype is that men lack focus, are disorganised, and have poor communication skills. One stereotype has been challenged, the other seems to have replaced it, and younger men have almost been encouraged to live down to it. I don't think as a culture we're emotionally mature enough yet to handle these issues in an effective way, and both education and socialisation will remain problematic until we do.
SubmarineClub 4mo ago
> There’s projections that college student populations will have shrinking male population. We're well past that. In fact, the gender gap in college graduation is now worse than it was when Title IX was passed. But because the gap favors women no one gives a shit -- many 'progressives' even celebrate it and continue to insist we need all these programs specifically to get women into college.

by pokstad 4mo ago

XorNot 4mo ago

What philosophy? The gender based outcomes people never seem able to come up with any coherent explanation of what they think the problem is other then to play to stereotypes.

bilbo0s 4mo ago
This. A math test is a math test is a math test. What's the math teacher supposed to do? I hate to be that guy, but I think it should be pointed out that asian boys don't seem to have much of a problem. If there's a gender bias, why do they succeed?
- s5300 4mo ago
  [dead]
rootusrootus 4mo ago
The explanation that I’ve seen floated is behavioral. Boys are active and physical and don’t focus as easily as girls, who are more amenable to sitting quietly and paying attention. The idea is that the current predominant K12 style favors students in the latter behavior group. I have two kids in K12 and I don’t think it’s that simple. Not that I have a good explanation of my own, mind you.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- jplusequalt 4mo ago
  >who are more amenable to sitting quietly and paying attention Is this explanation not making a blatant assumption here that girls are statistically less hyperactive and distracted than boys?
  - rootusrootus 4mo ago
    Is that controversial (assuming otherwise normal children, excluding anybody with ADHD, etc)?
  - rocmcd 4mo ago
    "Hyperactive and distracted" is not necessarily the exact reason, but there is a large, well documented gap in performance for boys vs girls in elementary school (at least in the US).
Avicebron 4mo ago
> What philosophy? They might be referring to the TED Radio Hour "Beyond the manosphere" by Richard Reeves. I think it was on NPR a while ago, I looked it up because the "school isn't designed for boys but girls" sounded familiar.
smelendez 4mo ago
What confuses me is that the education system, especially the college track, was designed for men and boys. Lots of colleges didn’t even admit women, and they were largely excluded from learned professions like medicine, law, the ministry, engineering, etc. I haven’t really seen a good argument for what changed. I guess it’s possible that the school system was originally designed to teach young men skills, like quiet study and deference to authority, that women either learn more naturally or get reinforced in other contexts, and the schools no longer effectively teach those skills but still reward them.

rootusrootus 4mo ago

> projections that college student populations will have shrinking male population Projections? Aren’t we already there in reality? That future is today.

fasterik 4mo ago

It's not that the system favors a particular gender. The system favors personality traits like self-regulation, organization, and conscientiousness. These traits develop earlier on average in girls than in boys.

parpfish 4mo ago
i'm not sure if it's an issue of the educational system, but for at least several decades there has been a societal push to correct historical gender imbalances by encouraging girls to do well in school, go to college (especially STEM), get a career. This has resulted in kids seeing a lot of messaging along the lines of "Girl Power! Girls can do anything!". Which to an adult looks like a shift in the tides of history, but for one of the kids that's all they've ever seen and i think that has an effect.
- fasterik 4mo ago
  It turns out that when you level the playing field, girls do better than boys. I don't think it's about the "girl power" nonsense, it's about the ability to sit down, focus on something, and produce work that meets a certain standard of achievement. I would say the more harmful slogan has been "you're okay just the way you are." I'm not saying we go back to harsh discipline and abuse, but there has to be a middle ground where we hold children, especially boys, to a higher standard.
  - TheOtherHobbes 4mo ago
    Boys have been sitting down, focusing, and producing work that meets a certain standard for most of recorded history. That ability is really not a uniquely feminine trait, and suggesting it is is honestly bizarre. Boys have also been doing more destructive things, but that's a different issue. Boys and girls do struggle with different issues socially and culturally, which is upstream of struggling with them academically. What's consistently missed that education is downstream of socialisation. The experience of learning as a first introduction to culture shapes consequences more than individual techniques do. Part of that is challenging all gender stereotypes. The traditional stereotype was that girls were frankly rather stupid and couldn't handle anything rigorous and challenging. Now the stereotype is that men lack focus, are disorganised, and have poor communication skills. One stereotype has been challenged, the other seems to have replaced it, and younger men have almost been encouraged to live down to it. I don't think as a culture we're emotionally mature enough yet to handle these issues in an effective way, and both education and socialisation will remain problematic until we do.

SubmarineClub 4mo ago

> There’s projections that college student populations will have shrinking male population. We're well past that. In fact, the gender gap in college graduation is now worse than it was when Title IX was passed. But because the gap favors women no one gives a shit -- many 'progressives' even celebrate it and continue to insist we need all these programs specifically to get women into college.