4 ms·

> These theories are flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things. It would be a valid argument if y

by ordu 4mo ago

> These theories are flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things. It would be a valid argument if you could explain us what subjective experience and agency are. No one can explain this, so the arguments sounds like "AI doesn't have something I don't really know what, but they have to miss something, sure". > But the truth is that we don't know. Yes! This is the point. If we don't know how our minds work, how can we be sure that a machine doesn't work like our minds? > I highly recommend people in the AI research space should read philosophy and modern linguistics. Linguists are linguists, they don't know about consciousness, they specialists in language. The main teaching of philosophy is to open your mind wide, and then still wider. So yes, we all should read more philosophy, but we should remember while reading, that philosophy is what we do, when we can't turn a question to a scientific one. I'd say that philosophy is more about finding the right question, than the right answer. Until there are no science branches like Subjectology or Consciousiology, and all you can find are TL;DRs written by philosophers and scientists from unrelated branches of science (like linguists or neurologists) you can be sure that the right question is not found yet. Therefore it is better to keep yourself uncertain. BTW it is the main lesson of philosophy: to open your mind wide and then open it wider still. I believe, that all this philosophy is... well... philosophy. Meta-physics. It doesn't matter. What does matter is how we should deal with machines? Do we have to treat them as human beings? Should we accept that they have "human rights"? Can a machine be held accountable for its mistakes? Can we talk about "intentional" and "unintentional" mistakes of a machine? Answers to these questions are important, they are imperative answers, they govern how we live our lives. But when people try to answer them, they somehow jump to talking about consciousness, and "are they really like us or not", and... etc. I personally keep myself uncertain. I'm pretty sure that current models do not deserve human rights. I cannot say about future models. You see, there were times in history when smart and well-intentioned people were certain that some people deserve less moral considerations than others. We are smart and well-intentioned and we are certain that AI deserve no moral considerations. How it will play out in a future? Will my descendants think bad of me because I used slave labor of a local model on a GPU? I don't know, we don't know. Right now, I'm exploiting LLMs and I believe it is ok, but I'm not going to fall into this trap and to stick to my belief because of some philosophical or lingustic or neurological argument. I'm choosing epistemological humility, I clearly state that I don't know the right answer and I'm keeping an eye to it so I wouldn't miss it.

f_klem 4mo ago
> It would be a valid argument if you could explain us what subjective experience and agency are. No one can explain this, so the arguments sounds like "AI doesn't have something I don't really know what, but they have to miss something, sure". Subjective experience is what you and only you, different from other beings, experience in and about the world. > Yes! This is the point. If we don't know how our minds work, how can we be sure that a machine doesn't work like our minds? You can't be sure that machine do not work like our minds or brains. But you cannot say the opposite either, so saying 'machines could think' base on a false assumption (because you cannot say it is true. It doesn't matter if you could be true). > Linguists are linguists, they don't know about consciousness, they specialists in language. That's a very narrow understanding of what language is, what linguists do/research, and the contributions made in the field. Linguists are (since already 2 o 3 decades) focusing more and more on psychological/cognitive matters. The intertwined topics of language, mind, body and though has a long way in the western philosophical tradition. > I believe, that all this philosophy is... well... philosophy. Meta-physics. It doesn't matter. What does matter is how we should deal with machines? Do we have to treat them as human beings? Should we accept that they have "human rights"? Can a machine be held accountable for its mistakes? Can we talk about "intentional" and "unintentional" mistakes of a machine? Exactly because of this. And is this what I am talking about... the topics you mention here are already settled in the philosophy space, but the AI research space keeps going 'round them...
- ordu 4mo ago
  > Subjective experience is what you and only you, different from other beings, experience in and about the world. So subjective experience is subjective experience? Do rocks have subjective experience? The main goal of any definition is to say clearly what is doesn't cover. It is not enough to say what is subjective experience, you should say it in a way that excludes everything else. Like what is objective experience? How it differs from subjective one? Do LLM experience objectively or not experience at all? How can you say? > But you cannot say the opposite either, so saying 'machines could think' base on a false assumption I can say that they could think. The thought process implies a measurable product. Yes, there are similar situation with it, it can be hard to say sometimes if we observe a product of a thought or something else. But science has some success with this, like claiming that bees can think and solve problems. > That's a very narrow understanding of what language is, what linguists do/research, and the contributions made in the field. Linguists are (since already 2 o 3 decades) focusing more and more on psychological/cognitive matters. I'm telling you, psychologists (who specialize on mind research) do not know what consciousness is and they do not have a definition of a subjective experience (well, if we treat your proposed definition as a valid definition, then we should say they have plenty). And my claim still stands: until you heard about new science "Subjectology" you can be sure that no one knows what subjective experience is. Including linguists. > the topics you mention here are already settled in the philosophy space You shouldn't believe that anything can be settled in the philosophy space. Philosophers can think they have settled things, but until science agreed and started empirical studies, it is just philosophers believing that they settled things. > Exactly because of this. And is this what I am talking about... Exactly because of this I'm vary of any "settled things". You see, people have all the reasons for motivated reasoning. People are historically very wary of any attempts to extend the group of beings covered by "human rights" or whatever it was actual at their time. People would fight to the death to not include another group of beings to the list of "sentient", "conscious" or what it is today is euphemism to "morally equal to a human". And I do not trust anyone to overcome this deep psychological bias. I do not trust myself, I do not trust philosophers, I do not trust linguists, I do not trust neurologists and psychologists. Well, psychologists are probably the most prepared to it, but I do not trust them still. Just think about it, lets suppose someone proved beyond any doubt that LLM has conscious experience. What happens then? Try to imagine that counterfactual world. It will be a very troubled world, won't it? Any sentient human feels it, they feel the level of push back they would receive if they claimed that LLM is conscious. So any sentient person unconsciously feel the urge to join the side claiming that LLMs are not conscious: it is safe to argue they are not, you can publish papers on it and you won't face a strong condemnation from angry scientists, politicians, large corporations hoping to make a shitton of money with LLMs, various religious groups, etc. Our world just have no place for a sentient LLMs. If they are sentient we have to either ban them, or to do sweeping changes to make room for LLMs with human rights. No philosopher/linguist/neuroscientist/psychologist is safe from this unconscious bias, and they do not speak math, they say things like your definition of subjective experience above. Things that can mean anything if you try hard enough. It means you can't just take logic and check their reasoning, you have to _feel_ that they are right, but your feelings a subject to your psychological biases too. You can trust your subjective experiences because they are subjective. If philosophy "settled things" then I even more wary of it. It has even more biases to keep status quo. Wanna me to draw you a picture how the philosopher opinion would evolve if it turns out that LLM are conscious? History shows us how these things unfold. It won't happen overnight, people working with LLMs will notice some patterns and they will ask new questions and slightly modified versions of "already settled questions". The latter will be forced into "already settled answers" (Thomas Kuhn, normal science phase). The former might be answered in the current paradigm (and become settled) or just thrown away as "meaningless" questions. It will be a long process: people noticing things, world class thinkers forcing them into the paradigm. With each step it will become more and more ridiculous, until everyone will see that paradigm doesn't hold. After that politics will take over and it will be defending "traditional paradigm"... well, I can't predict the next phase, but it doesn't matter. What does matter is the alternate Universe where LLMs are sentient would look to you just like ours. Matters settled already, all questions have answers. Well, some don't, but those are nonsensical questions. etc. etc.

by ordu 4mo ago

f_klem 4mo ago

> It would be a valid argument if you could explain us what subjective experience and agency are. No one can explain this, so the arguments sounds like "AI doesn't have something I don't really know what, but they have to miss something, sure". Subjective experience is what you and only you, different from other beings, experience in and about the world. > Yes! This is the point. If we don't know how our minds work, how can we be sure that a machine doesn't work like our minds? You can't be sure that machine do not work like our minds or brains. But you cannot say the opposite either, so saying 'machines could think' base on a false assumption (because you cannot say it is true. It doesn't matter if you could be true). > Linguists are linguists, they don't know about consciousness, they specialists in language. That's a very narrow understanding of what language is, what linguists do/research, and the contributions made in the field. Linguists are (since already 2 o 3 decades) focusing more and more on psychological/cognitive matters. The intertwined topics of language, mind, body and though has a long way in the western philosophical tradition. > I believe, that all this philosophy is... well... philosophy. Meta-physics. It doesn't matter. What does matter is how we should deal with machines? Do we have to treat them as human beings? Should we accept that they have "human rights"? Can a machine be held accountable for its mistakes? Can we talk about "intentional" and "unintentional" mistakes of a machine? Exactly because of this. And is this what I am talking about... the topics you mention here are already settled in the philosophy space, but the AI research space keeps going 'round them...

ordu 4mo ago
> Subjective experience is what you and only you, different from other beings, experience in and about the world. So subjective experience is subjective experience? Do rocks have subjective experience? The main goal of any definition is to say clearly what is doesn't cover. It is not enough to say what is subjective experience, you should say it in a way that excludes everything else. Like what is objective experience? How it differs from subjective one? Do LLM experience objectively or not experience at all? How can you say? > But you cannot say the opposite either, so saying 'machines could think' base on a false assumption I can say that they could think. The thought process implies a measurable product. Yes, there are similar situation with it, it can be hard to say sometimes if we observe a product of a thought or something else. But science has some success with this, like claiming that bees can think and solve problems. > That's a very narrow understanding of what language is, what linguists do/research, and the contributions made in the field. Linguists are (since already 2 o 3 decades) focusing more and more on psychological/cognitive matters. I'm telling you, psychologists (who specialize on mind research) do not know what consciousness is and they do not have a definition of a subjective experience (well, if we treat your proposed definition as a valid definition, then we should say they have plenty). And my claim still stands: until you heard about new science "Subjectology" you can be sure that no one knows what subjective experience is. Including linguists. > the topics you mention here are already settled in the philosophy space You shouldn't believe that anything can be settled in the philosophy space. Philosophers can think they have settled things, but until science agreed and started empirical studies, it is just philosophers believing that they settled things. > Exactly because of this. And is this what I am talking about... Exactly because of this I'm vary of any "settled things". You see, people have all the reasons for motivated reasoning. People are historically very wary of any attempts to extend the group of beings covered by "human rights" or whatever it was actual at their time. People would fight to the death to not include another group of beings to the list of "sentient", "conscious" or what it is today is euphemism to "morally equal to a human". And I do not trust anyone to overcome this deep psychological bias. I do not trust myself, I do not trust philosophers, I do not trust linguists, I do not trust neurologists and psychologists. Well, psychologists are probably the most prepared to it, but I do not trust them still. Just think about it, lets suppose someone proved beyond any doubt that LLM has conscious experience. What happens then? Try to imagine that counterfactual world. It will be a very troubled world, won't it? Any sentient human feels it, they feel the level of push back they would receive if they claimed that LLM is conscious. So any sentient person unconsciously feel the urge to join the side claiming that LLMs are not conscious: it is safe to argue they are not, you can publish papers on it and you won't face a strong condemnation from angry scientists, politicians, large corporations hoping to make a shitton of money with LLMs, various religious groups, etc. Our world just have no place for a sentient LLMs. If they are sentient we have to either ban them, or to do sweeping changes to make room for LLMs with human rights. No philosopher/linguist/neuroscientist/psychologist is safe from this unconscious bias, and they do not speak math, they say things like your definition of subjective experience above. Things that can mean anything if you try hard enough. It means you can't just take logic and check their reasoning, you have to _feel_ that they are right, but your feelings a subject to your psychological biases too. You can trust your subjective experiences because they are subjective. If philosophy "settled things" then I even more wary of it. It has even more biases to keep status quo. Wanna me to draw you a picture how the philosopher opinion would evolve if it turns out that LLM are conscious? History shows us how these things unfold. It won't happen overnight, people working with LLMs will notice some patterns and they will ask new questions and slightly modified versions of "already settled questions". The latter will be forced into "already settled answers" (Thomas Kuhn, normal science phase). The former might be answered in the current paradigm (and become settled) or just thrown away as "meaningless" questions. It will be a long process: people noticing things, world class thinkers forcing them into the paradigm. With each step it will become more and more ridiculous, until everyone will see that paradigm doesn't hold. After that politics will take over and it will be defending "traditional paradigm"... well, I can't predict the next phase, but it doesn't matter. What does matter is the alternate Universe where LLMs are sentient would look to you just like ours. Matters settled already, all questions have answers. Well, some don't, but those are nonsensical questions. etc. etc.