4 ms·
i would love to have a software engineer's union, not so much to get better working conditions but to be able to say stuff like "i can't implement that unethica
by woodrowbarlow 5mo ago
i would love to have a software engineer's union, not so much to get better working conditions but to be able to say stuff like "i can't implement that unethical feature, it's against union rules and i'd lose my membership".
- absqueued 5mo agoTake a lead, let me sign up :)
- hasahmed 5mo agosame
- SoftTalker 5mo agoAnd this is why we don't have one. Someone else is expected to do the hard part.
- volkercraig 5mo agoStart one. Unions are worker owned. You could also join the IWW.
- actionfromafar 5mo agoUnions in the US are nerfed, by law.
- greyface- 5mo agoCollective bargaining is nerfed. Other structures remain viable and legal.
- actionfromafar 5mo agoExactly. Nerfed. Unions without collective bargaining is more like a social club.
- lesuorac 5mo agoNaw unions are nerfed. ex. Secondary (Sympathy) Strikes are illegal [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action#United_State...
- askl 5mo agoAre you not allowed to leave the US?
- mmmlinux 5mo agounless your union involves being the law, then they can do literally anything.
- woodrowbarlow 5mo agoare there examples of unions that have started around a focus on the ethics of the services they provide? unions traditionally start locally, around issues for which the locality is a hotspot, which is why they usually focus on pay and working conditions. it's also easier to get a large group to agree on a set of improvements to working conditions vs a set of ethical boundaries.
- woodrowbarlow 4mo agoactually, it looks like this is happening inside Google right now. DeepMind workers are unionizing, and most of their demands revolve around ethical boundaries and the right to refuse to contribute based on ethical grounds.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- theodorejb 5mo agoYou don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests.
- jakubadamw 5mo agoThe collective leverage of a union gives you significantly more power to do something like this.
- theodorejb 5mo agoOnly if the union is against the unethical request. In some cases the union may be for it, which makes it even harder to push back.
- jackb4040 5mo agoFellow software engineers aren't incentivized to destroy their company's reputation in the same way that boards of directors have proven to be time and time again.
- chrncirurp 5mo ago> You don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests. If you push back against unethical feature requests: No union: you get fired Union: you still get fired
- grayhatter 5mo agoTo be fair; you don't need a union... you can just say no. Context; I told them they couldn't ship this exact feature as designed. (It worked until I left.)
- Trasmatta 5mo agoWithout the protection of a union, "just saying no" is a good way to get fired
- woodrowbarlow 5mo agoyes, true sometimes (not always). but if more people have access to a way to confidently say "no" (with protection behind them), then i think saying "no" would happen more often, by people who might've otherwise complied.
- ethagnawl 5mo ago> not so much to get better working conditions but ... why not both?
- LadyCailin 5mo agoThat’s what licensing is for, not unions.
- hluska 5mo agoA union could absolutely get involved in something like this.
- woodrowbarlow 5mo agoi don't believe that software development should require a license. imagine having to get board-licensed to download gcc; therein lies the death of free software and owning your devices.
- iamnothere 5mo ago> therein lies the death of free software and owning your devices (That’s what these people want)
- kube-system 5mo agoI'd wonder how you'd get into that arrangement to begin with when the entire job is based on unethical tracking
- dzikimarian 5mo agoHonestly - shouldn't one assume that train already departed when they decided to work for company that is basically data mining operation with no ethics?
- toast0 5mo agoYou could join the Order of the Engineer and refuse to do things that would not be compatible with your understanding of the Obligation of an Engineer [1]. Of course, that doesn't stop your employer from asking someone else to do it and asking you to find other employment. There's a few other orders or societies or what have you that you could join. Personally, I don't drive a train or even wear a stripey hat, so I haven't considered joining an organization for Engineers. [1] https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation/ https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation...
- aforwardslash 5mo agoWhy not just ask for context and approval of the legal team? That would generate enough trail so some shady requirements get dropped almost immediately; having your superior explicitly sign off in writing a feature you deemed unethical and/or potentially illegal is a great way of actually removing them from the pipeline. You can even frame it as "a good guy" just alerting him/her that there may be a fallback, so make sure it has all necessary elements. Compliance decisions are often above a developers paygrade, and one should squarely document the culprit on any shady decision - and boy, this is very easy in big organizations where no single decision-maker wants to be accountable.