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I think the best way to fight against ageism is to make an effort to retain an open mind and curiosity. The problem is that doesn't fight ageism. It panders to

I think the best way to fight against ageism is to make an effort to retain an open mind and curiosity. The problem is that doesn't fight ageism. It panders to it. Ageism is when you don't get treated fairly just because of your age - no matter how curious and open minded you may or may not be. If somebody things I'm closed minded and incurious because I'm in my forties they are being ageist. They are the one with a problem. Simples. You fight ageism by pointing out bigoted asshattery when you encounter it. You fight it by not staying quiet. You fight it by lobbying to make it illegal. You fight it by giving people concrete advice on how to deal with it in the workplace. You don't fight it by trying extra hard to demonstrate that their bigotry doesn't apply to you. That's a coping strategy. Not a fighting strategy.

wbharding 14y ago
I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity. The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I think it is because they never made it a point to sharpen their openness & curiosity. If I saw a 55 yo engineer with a Github portfolio of Ruby and Python projects, hell yes I would interview that candidate. But the reality is that when I've interviewed older candidates in the past, they are in general more likely to be behind the curve when it comes to speaking the language of the latest tech and developments. My hunch is that complacency breeds this attitude. It is hard to constantly learn new tech for 40+ years, because so much of the learning process is about being wrong repeatedly. My solution personally is to try to constantly force myself to understand and appreciate the zeitgeist of music, programming, and design as I age. In terms of personal empowerment, it seems to me one of the most sensible routes to fight ageism. Calling out others who promote ageism is good too, but it doesn't directly address the fact that someday we will all be old, and we'll need an actionable strategy to succeed in spite of that.
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity. Intentionally taking on an attitude of openness and curiosity is, of course, a good thing at any age. I read (possibly misread) it in this context as meaning that you have to demonstrate this in some more extreme way if you're old. That, to me, is pandering to bigotry. The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I think it is because they never made it a point to sharpen their openness & curiosity. I know people like that. My experience has been though that those people are just as inflexible in their 20s as they are in their 50s. It's just that it's trickier to spot - because they've been stuck for a shorter period of time. If you're in your twenties and look around your peers now I bet you'll find some folk who are still really into the same bands they were into when they were in their teens. They'll still be into those bands in 30 years time. My solution personally is to try to constantly force myself to understand and appreciate the zeitgeist of music, programming, and design as I age. In terms of personal empowerment, it seems to me one of the most sensible routes to fight ageism. That's a fantastic approach to living an interesting and fulfilling life. It's a lousy strategy to fight ageism. Ageism is what others do to you. It's bigotry. It's not looking at you because of your age, not because of how open minded (or not) you are. Being open minded doesn't help you since the person on the other side of the table doesn't see an open minded person. They see an old one. And they assume.
gfodor 14y ago
Yeah sorry I worded that poorly. My point is that I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary and is just older people not being hired by falling into the traps I mentioned above. I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's and NoSQL is a fad. (Not that they're wrong :))
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary Then you'd guess wrong. Take it from somebody in their forties - and I'm fortunate enough to be mistaken for being in my 30s quite often (the fat hides the wrinkles ;-) I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's And there is the problem in a nutshell. That is ageism. The assumption is that they're saying it because they are old. Not because their an idiot (or not ;-). It's http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/ - but for age not sex. There are older developers who suck. But it's not because they're old. It's because they suck.
  - gfodor 14y ago
    Huh? How is that ageism? I wouldn't say it's a matter of sucking or not sucking. It's a matter of perspective and sometimes inexperience plays to your benefit when doing a startup. Experienced engineers can identify known unknowns. Inexperienced ones have many more unknown unknowns. Ignorance hurts you in most situations in life, but in the case of startups, a little ignorance is often what it takes to try problems that everyone else has ignored because they thought they were "solved."
    - adrianhoward 14y ago
      Okay - I seem to have misread you. Sorry. When you said: "I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's" I read it as roughly: "Young entrepreneurs don't have a <40 policy. They're making a rational decision not to hire old people after encountering lots of old people telling them things they think are incorrect because of their age.". Which, I think, we both agree is dumb logic. [edit; Actually said "sorry" ;-)]

wbharding 14y ago

I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity. The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I think it is because they never made it a point to sharpen their openness & curiosity. If I saw a 55 yo engineer with a Github portfolio of Ruby and Python projects, hell yes I would interview that candidate. But the reality is that when I've interviewed older candidates in the past, they are in general more likely to be behind the curve when it comes to speaking the language of the latest tech and developments. My hunch is that complacency breeds this attitude. It is hard to constantly learn new tech for 40+ years, because so much of the learning process is about being wrong repeatedly. My solution personally is to try to constantly force myself to understand and appreciate the zeitgeist of music, programming, and design as I age. In terms of personal empowerment, it seems to me one of the most sensible routes to fight ageism. Calling out others who promote ageism is good too, but it doesn't directly address the fact that someday we will all be old, and we'll need an actionable strategy to succeed in spite of that.

adrianhoward 14y ago
I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity. Intentionally taking on an attitude of openness and curiosity is, of course, a good thing at any age. I read (possibly misread) it in this context as meaning that you have to demonstrate this in some more extreme way if you're old. That, to me, is pandering to bigotry. The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I think it is because they never made it a point to sharpen their openness & curiosity. I know people like that. My experience has been though that those people are just as inflexible in their 20s as they are in their 50s. It's just that it's trickier to spot - because they've been stuck for a shorter period of time. If you're in your twenties and look around your peers now I bet you'll find some folk who are still really into the same bands they were into when they were in their teens. They'll still be into those bands in 30 years time. My solution personally is to try to constantly force myself to understand and appreciate the zeitgeist of music, programming, and design as I age. In terms of personal empowerment, it seems to me one of the most sensible routes to fight ageism. That's a fantastic approach to living an interesting and fulfilling life. It's a lousy strategy to fight ageism. Ageism is what others do to you. It's bigotry. It's not looking at you because of your age, not because of how open minded (or not) you are. Being open minded doesn't help you since the person on the other side of the table doesn't see an open minded person. They see an old one. And they assume.

gfodor 14y ago

Yeah sorry I worded that poorly. My point is that I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary and is just older people not being hired by falling into the traps I mentioned above. I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's and NoSQL is a fad. (Not that they're wrong :))

adrianhoward 14y ago
I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary Then you'd guess wrong. Take it from somebody in their forties - and I'm fortunate enough to be mistaken for being in my 30s quite often (the fat hides the wrinkles ;-) I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's And there is the problem in a nutshell. That is ageism. The assumption is that they're saying it because they are old. Not because their an idiot (or not ;-). It's http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/ - but for age not sex. There are older developers who suck. But it's not because they're old. It's because they suck.
- gfodor 14y ago
  Huh? How is that ageism? I wouldn't say it's a matter of sucking or not sucking. It's a matter of perspective and sometimes inexperience plays to your benefit when doing a startup. Experienced engineers can identify known unknowns. Inexperienced ones have many more unknown unknowns. Ignorance hurts you in most situations in life, but in the case of startups, a little ignorance is often what it takes to try problems that everyone else has ignored because they thought they were "solved."
  - adrianhoward 14y ago
    Okay - I seem to have misread you. Sorry. When you said: "I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's" I read it as roughly: "Young entrepreneurs don't have a <40 policy. They're making a rational decision not to hire old people after encountering lots of old people telling them things they think are incorrect because of their age.". Which, I think, we both agree is dumb logic. [edit; Actually said "sorry" ;-)]