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My first thought: narcissism. Narcissists hate being around older people because it reminds them that, some day, they'll be old and unable to do the sorts of th

My first thought: narcissism. Narcissists hate being around older people because it reminds them that, some day, they'll be old and unable to do the sorts of things that narcissists tend to do on the weekend. I don't think that all founders are narcissists, but if you want to be able to hire narcissists (which 75% of execs are, let's be honest) then ageism becomes practical, sadly. Then again, I think some of it is subconscious and unintentional: unreasonably harsh age-grading, coming from an inexperienced and privileged set of people who've never had to do grunt work and therefore have slack-free careers. People who are young and have high career efficiency ratios expect a linear trend-- consistently improving projects-- but the reality for most people (save privileged 22-year-olds) is that they have to take the work they get, rather than being able to focus on their passion or highly-visible (e.g. open source) work. I, personally, would love to hire someone in his 60s with no slack in his career-- I'd make him my personal mentor and figure out how he did it-- but it's quite rare to find such a person. The reason ageism exists is that most people have to take low-quality, career-toxic work to (a) avoid income volatility that becomes more unacceptable with age, (b) evade the "job hopper" stigma, and (c) remain employable without moving to another city every 3 years, and this creates a world in which premature decline is far more common than it should be.

sdoowpilihp 14y ago
What kind of things do narcissists do on the weekend that would be specifically limited by age?
- mahyarm 14y ago
  Late night clubbing and extreme sports?
  - knieveltech 14y ago
    Fred Becky was climbing El Cap well into his 80's. You might have something with clubbing though.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- seiji 14y ago
  Many SV startups are proxies for being a close knit frat. Hiring for "cultural fit" has gone way off the wacko deep end. (Did google start this? "Oh, you don't have a degree? We won't hire you. Oh, but you do make your own beer and wear funny shoes? Cultural fit! Hired!") Your job description skills matter, but only if you also are a functional alcoholic who is addicted to playing online games for 30+ hours a week in addition to working 60+ hours a week.* Startup is Mother. Startup is Father. * I write this out of bitterness because I don't drink or play video games, which oddly I feel disqualifies me from working many places. "Oh, you don't play xbox? That's okay, I guess. The entire company gets together for six hours on Friday to drink and play marathon games though."
  - tripzilch 14y ago
    > The entire company gets together for six hours on Friday to drink and play marathon games though. Ugh I hate that. This one time, there was a few hours to bridge between the end of the work day and the start of the office Christmas party (presumably because some management guys had to drive back from out of town). The other programmers quickly set up a multiplayer Starcraft game and later an FPS deathmatch. I quickly found out both types of games are not a lot of fun unless you possess a modicum of skill in them (unlike, say, Tetris or 1000 Blank White Cards).
  - minibus 14y ago
    Huge fan of the Xbox, personally, but I'm inclined to agree with you.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    I'm in the same category. I don't enjoy drinking and I hate most video games, especially console ones and especially FPSes. The SV frat culture is such a turnoff.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      What's absolutely hilarious about it is that it's not the same frat culture that typifies Wall Street. It's the nerd frats.
- louhike 14y ago
  There are less chances that they have children and a serious relationship so they are supposed to have more freedom to do what they want. This isn't of course a general assumption. I know married persons with children who spend way more time than me on personal projects the week end.
- jgon 14y ago
  Narcissism doesn't seem to me to be a life sentence sort of thing, although it can be. I think that the general point being made is that narcissists tend to be younger, and then many of us grow out of it. Whether it's the realization of my own mortality, being in a serious relationship, or (just even thinking about) having a child, I definitely can feel my perspective broadening as I get older, growing from the laser-like focus I used to have solely on myself, to now encompass the happiness and well-being of those around me. So maybe it's not the narcissists are limited by age, but rather that age limits narcissism.
moocow01 14y ago
There is also a story that goes the other way... that as you grow older you realize its not worth working with those types of people. The last place I want to work personally is at a place stacked with narcissists all trying to figure out how they can prop up their own egos (while this does not define many startups it also unfortunately from my experience does define quite a few). Life is too short to not be working with decent people. That being said if you have the opportunity to work with some people who have been in tech for 20 or 30 years - become their buddy - you're more than likely to find out they are some of the smartest out there. When I was first out of college I worked at a place where the 2 guys I sat next to were 40 and 50 years old - they still are the best mentors/collaborators Ive ever had.
reinhardt 14y ago
The narcissism theory sounds like an arbitrary rationalization. The following would sound just as plausible, if not more: "Narcissists hate being around young people because it reminds them that, once upon a time, they used to be young and able to do the sorts of things that narcissists cannot do on the weekend anymore."
magicalist 14y ago
er, ignoring the narcissism thing, which is bizarre (you want to hire narcissists, so better not hire old|ugly|disabled people!) your post seems to be arguing for the assumptions that the article is about: we can assume old people had to take shitty work in the past, therefore they are probably going to appear to be a poor candidate. This completely ignores the evidence directly in front of us that all good engineers will one day start looking older and start having a lot more trouble finding job offers. I don't really understand how you go directly from saying that it's unintentional and is "unreasonably harsh age-grading, coming from an inexperienced and privileged set of people who've never had to do grunt work" but then proceed to (try to) explain how it's perfectly logical that you can have a positive outlook of the future of your career, but actually you're going to have to take what you can get, which is the reason why "premature decline is far more common than it should be". Maybe I'm missing the gist of your argument here? Are you suggesting we should be doing job interviews on a curve, excusing 20 years as a code monkey at some place you've never heard of because they probably had a mortgage? I don't know if that's your point, but it is definitely off base here: those 20 years might have created a middle-manager toady or they might have honed razor-sharp gut instincts and experience with relevant languages and tools. Either way, walking in with the assumption that "premature decline is far more common than it should be" means you're probably going to miss the truth of the matter, which is the whole point. No one is suggesting affirmative action for greybeards, they're saying that the kinds of things many in tech assume because a person has grey in their hair means that they don't get a fair shot, even when their experience is extensive and applicable.
- svachalek 14y ago
  This article was focused more on the movie-villain version of ageism (Over 25! NO HIRE! MUHAHA!!) but the real-world version often goes something like, "look at this guy, he's like, 38! if he's applying for anything less than CEO he's obviously terribad!" That said, I also think the argument missed the mark.
  - gonzo 14y ago
    Or he's decided that being CEO is cool and all, but he would rather code. It's not about the money once you have 'enough'.
chaostheory 14y ago
I disagree. As I get older and see my friends who are programmers, I see a key issue: Becoming set in your ways for better or worse, which leads to... not as willing to change or learn new stuff. To be fair there are exceptions. There are people who just enjoy programming for the sake of programming and building stuff. These programmers will most likely never be out of date. If you're not one of those people, then you need to force yourself to step out of your comfort zone and try to use something new at least every year if not more often.
koko775 14y ago
> (a) avoid income volatility that becomes more unacceptable with age, (b) evade the "job hopper" stigma (a) Ding! I had to drop out of college to support my parents. (b) Ding! I stuck around with jobs that made my physically unstable and emotionally depressed because otherwise I would have been unemployable. I was originally an iOS dev, which I love, and I hate Android programming, but I've been forced by circumstance to get reasonably good at it over the past two years. And yet to some of the people I know, I'm the "old" guy, and I haven't even hit my mid-twenties.
- freyr 14y ago
  > yet to some of the people I know, I'm the "old" guy, and I haven't even hit my mid-twenties. If that's the case, it speaks to the immaturity of some of the people you know.
deleted 14y ago
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- deleted 14y ago
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sdoowpilihp 14y ago

What kind of things do narcissists do on the weekend that would be specifically limited by age?

mahyarm 14y ago
Late night clubbing and extreme sports?
- knieveltech 14y ago
  Fred Becky was climbing El Cap well into his 80's. You might have something with clubbing though.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
seiji 14y ago
Many SV startups are proxies for being a close knit frat. Hiring for "cultural fit" has gone way off the wacko deep end. (Did google start this? "Oh, you don't have a degree? We won't hire you. Oh, but you do make your own beer and wear funny shoes? Cultural fit! Hired!") Your job description skills matter, but only if you also are a functional alcoholic who is addicted to playing online games for 30+ hours a week in addition to working 60+ hours a week.* Startup is Mother. Startup is Father. * I write this out of bitterness because I don't drink or play video games, which oddly I feel disqualifies me from working many places. "Oh, you don't play xbox? That's okay, I guess. The entire company gets together for six hours on Friday to drink and play marathon games though."
- tripzilch 14y ago
  > The entire company gets together for six hours on Friday to drink and play marathon games though. Ugh I hate that. This one time, there was a few hours to bridge between the end of the work day and the start of the office Christmas party (presumably because some management guys had to drive back from out of town). The other programmers quickly set up a multiplayer Starcraft game and later an FPS deathmatch. I quickly found out both types of games are not a lot of fun unless you possess a modicum of skill in them (unlike, say, Tetris or 1000 Blank White Cards).
- minibus 14y ago
  Huge fan of the Xbox, personally, but I'm inclined to agree with you.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  I'm in the same category. I don't enjoy drinking and I hate most video games, especially console ones and especially FPSes. The SV frat culture is such a turnoff.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    What's absolutely hilarious about it is that it's not the same frat culture that typifies Wall Street. It's the nerd frats.
louhike 14y ago
There are less chances that they have children and a serious relationship so they are supposed to have more freedom to do what they want. This isn't of course a general assumption. I know married persons with children who spend way more time than me on personal projects the week end.
jgon 14y ago
Narcissism doesn't seem to me to be a life sentence sort of thing, although it can be. I think that the general point being made is that narcissists tend to be younger, and then many of us grow out of it. Whether it's the realization of my own mortality, being in a serious relationship, or (just even thinking about) having a child, I definitely can feel my perspective broadening as I get older, growing from the laser-like focus I used to have solely on myself, to now encompass the happiness and well-being of those around me. So maybe it's not the narcissists are limited by age, but rather that age limits narcissism.

moocow01 14y ago

There is also a story that goes the other way... that as you grow older you realize its not worth working with those types of people. The last place I want to work personally is at a place stacked with narcissists all trying to figure out how they can prop up their own egos (while this does not define many startups it also unfortunately from my experience does define quite a few). Life is too short to not be working with decent people. That being said if you have the opportunity to work with some people who have been in tech for 20 or 30 years - become their buddy - you're more than likely to find out they are some of the smartest out there. When I was first out of college I worked at a place where the 2 guys I sat next to were 40 and 50 years old - they still are the best mentors/collaborators Ive ever had.

reinhardt 14y ago

The narcissism theory sounds like an arbitrary rationalization. The following would sound just as plausible, if not more: "Narcissists hate being around young people because it reminds them that, once upon a time, they used to be young and able to do the sorts of things that narcissists cannot do on the weekend anymore."

magicalist 14y ago

er, ignoring the narcissism thing, which is bizarre (you want to hire narcissists, so better not hire old|ugly|disabled people!) your post seems to be arguing for the assumptions that the article is about: we can assume old people had to take shitty work in the past, therefore they are probably going to appear to be a poor candidate. This completely ignores the evidence directly in front of us that all good engineers will one day start looking older and start having a lot more trouble finding job offers. I don't really understand how you go directly from saying that it's unintentional and is "unreasonably harsh age-grading, coming from an inexperienced and privileged set of people who've never had to do grunt work" but then proceed to (try to) explain how it's perfectly logical that you can have a positive outlook of the future of your career, but actually you're going to have to take what you can get, which is the reason why "premature decline is far more common than it should be". Maybe I'm missing the gist of your argument here? Are you suggesting we should be doing job interviews on a curve, excusing 20 years as a code monkey at some place you've never heard of because they probably had a mortgage? I don't know if that's your point, but it is definitely off base here: those 20 years might have created a middle-manager toady or they might have honed razor-sharp gut instincts and experience with relevant languages and tools. Either way, walking in with the assumption that "premature decline is far more common than it should be" means you're probably going to miss the truth of the matter, which is the whole point. No one is suggesting affirmative action for greybeards, they're saying that the kinds of things many in tech assume because a person has grey in their hair means that they don't get a fair shot, even when their experience is extensive and applicable.

svachalek 14y ago
This article was focused more on the movie-villain version of ageism (Over 25! NO HIRE! MUHAHA!!) but the real-world version often goes something like, "look at this guy, he's like, 38! if he's applying for anything less than CEO he's obviously terribad!" That said, I also think the argument missed the mark.
- gonzo 14y ago
  Or he's decided that being CEO is cool and all, but he would rather code. It's not about the money once you have 'enough'.

chaostheory 14y ago

I disagree. As I get older and see my friends who are programmers, I see a key issue: Becoming set in your ways for better or worse, which leads to... not as willing to change or learn new stuff. To be fair there are exceptions. There are people who just enjoy programming for the sake of programming and building stuff. These programmers will most likely never be out of date. If you're not one of those people, then you need to force yourself to step out of your comfort zone and try to use something new at least every year if not more often.

koko775 14y ago

> (a) avoid income volatility that becomes more unacceptable with age, (b) evade the "job hopper" stigma (a) Ding! I had to drop out of college to support my parents. (b) Ding! I stuck around with jobs that made my physically unstable and emotionally depressed because otherwise I would have been unemployable. I was originally an iOS dev, which I love, and I hate Android programming, but I've been forced by circumstance to get reasonably good at it over the past two years. And yet to some of the people I know, I'm the "old" guy, and I haven't even hit my mid-twenties.

freyr 14y ago
> yet to some of the people I know, I'm the "old" guy, and I haven't even hit my mid-twenties. If that's the case, it speaks to the immaturity of some of the people you know.

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