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Dirty yes, secret no. Straight talk: I'm the CTO at a startup and I often have to call out the founders and employees for ageism. I resent that they say thing

Dirty yes, secret no. Straight talk: I'm the CTO at a startup and I often have to call out the founders and employees for ageism. I resent that they say things that make me think they wouldn't take hiring an experienced engineer seriously. I resent that they think my profession is best served by dumb happy newbies with no private life. I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call them out for this ageism. I'm 24 years old and I will not stop programming just because I eventually grow a unix beard.

nasalgoat 14y ago
I'm in my 40s now, and the number of times I've been brought into a startup suffering under the plague of 20-something founder's grandiose ideas of how things should be done vs. the nearly 20 years of real world experience that says otherwise would surprise you. Youth might fuel the launch of your product, but experience will help it keep flying.
- codewright 14y ago
  I know the value of experience because I know what my code looked like 5 and 10 years ago. I also know how incredibly poor my judgment was back then compared to now. I can only imagine what 20 years will do for me. That's why I actively seek out more experience in candidates because I believe it'll make them more competent and sharp at what they do. Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use. Most of my pre-startup experience is as a contractor/consultant.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use. Most of my pre-startup experience is as a contractor/consultant. Lots of young engineers don't know how to interview. (In addition to being interviewed by young ones lately, I also realize how I've fucked it up back then.) Lots of them don't know how to listen. The vast majority don't know how much they don't know.
    - enjo 14y ago
      I also realize how I've fucked it up back then Really that's been the story of my 30's. A series of cringe-worthy realizations that I was not nearly as good at my job as I thought I was at 26.
  - krakensden 14y ago
    I've worked with developers in their fifties- they're scary good.
    - codewright 14y ago
      As have I, but only when I was a contractor. I always looked forward to pairing up with the experienced engineers. I learned the most on those days.
    - jsaxton86 14y ago
      I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Age bias is awful, and I have worked with a lot of older developers who know their stuff and are extremely competent, but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.
      - reinhardt 14y ago
        No personal experience here but my gut feeling is that older developers are more likely to be closer to the one or the other extreme. The theory being that those who are average tend to move to middle/senior management, leaving behind those that are either brilliant hardcore hackers or incompetent clock punchers.
      - adrianhoward 14y ago
        I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Me to. And I've worked with devs in the 20s who are awful. And their 30s. And their 40s. And their 60s. I've also worked with great devs in all those age ranges. Proportions seem about the same to me. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that. I've not noticed a difference. I have noticed that it's harder to spot the folk in their 20s who don't learn and adapt quickly since folk in their 20s have to learn something to make any progress at all. Once that pressure is off and they've become fixated on Rails / C# / whatever they seem just as unlikely to change as any other age range. They just get fixated on the "cool" thing - so it takes longer to spot.
- mortenjorck 14y ago
  I've been meaning to write an article on this for awhile, but there's really no substitute for age diversity on a team. Having worked for the past year at a place with a fairly smooth gradient from just-out-of-school to used-COBOL-professionally, I can say from experience that it has been a benefit for both the older and younger employees. Of course, the key is still, as always, cultural fit. You have to have youngsters who are willing to take to heart a hard-learned lesson from a graybeard, and veteran devs who are willing to keep an open mind to a new technology espoused by the younger generation.
killitwithfire 14y ago
"I'm the CTO" ... "I'm 24 years old" mmmmmmkay....
reinhardt 14y ago
"... by dumb happy newbies with no private life." Interesting choice of words to attack ageism :)
- codewright 14y ago
  I know plenty of 20-somethings that are married (I'm from the midwest) and relatively experienced in their work. (6+ years professional experience) I also know yuppies angling for a "big win" whose only joy in life is playing Xbox at work and getting drunk. Who at the age of ~26 only have a couple years experience because they were too busy partying in college and didn't build anything while in school. But they totally know how to run a company because they 'get' product and engagement and read Hacker News. People come in all shapes and sizes. It's not about the age, it's about wisdom and where you are in life. You could be 26 or 56. I don't care as long as you care about your work and what you do.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
freyr 14y ago
> I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call them out for this ageism. And yet they appointed a 24 year old as CTO. Better pack up your stuff, since you refuse to tolerate it.
- stevewillows 14y ago
  Just because he's young doesn't mean it's ageism.
  - freyr 14y ago
    I don't know where he works or the company's circumstances, but in most cases, only a small tech start up that values youth over experience (or is on a shoestring budget) will appoint someone in their early 20s to an executive-level position.
    - codewright 14y ago
      I dislike that this conversation became about me but: They'll usually do that when he's the most experienced person in the company (like I was and am). I've been working since I was 18, not 22. That makes for six years rather than the usual two, and the first 5-10 years of a career are pretty impactful for everyone. Further, they were very dense years spent studying on my own time and working a lot of contracts. I didn't sit in a junior position at a large corporation, I've had enough time to become a decent backend engineer in my own right but also develop a decent specialization. In addition to that, my contracting and consulting background has made me somewhat less provincial than when I started so I'm capable of relating to business needs as a C-level needs to. I don't question your capacity to perform your job without knowing you, please afford others the same respect. I was trying to talk about the prejudice in the industry, not have it projected against me in the opposite direction. (Against younger people)
Permit 14y ago
Doesn't shit-talking Nutrivise in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- pyre 14y ago
  > I'm always weirded out by people who call-out > their employer in a public space like that... The egg is apparently on your face. codewright did not mention his/her employer, and with no personal details in the user profile, I'm curious how you would consider this 'calling out' one's employer.
- BasDirks 14y ago
  You are the weird one doing the calling out. Flagged.
- strlen 14y ago
  > Doesn't shit-talking $company in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that... He doesn't mention employer publicly. I can't even reasonably assume it's $company (Do you have an axe to grind against either? I've flagged this, as it appears to be the case.) Furthermore, being critical reflects well on codewright in his capacity as an officer of a company. Being able to accept constructive criticism reflects well on $company (assuming it even is $company). (Not mentioning $company by name as hoping the comment I am replying to will get killed; codewright made a deliberate choice not to include personal details in his profile, so let's honour it.)

nasalgoat 14y ago

I'm in my 40s now, and the number of times I've been brought into a startup suffering under the plague of 20-something founder's grandiose ideas of how things should be done vs. the nearly 20 years of real world experience that says otherwise would surprise you. Youth might fuel the launch of your product, but experience will help it keep flying.

codewright 14y ago
I know the value of experience because I know what my code looked like 5 and 10 years ago. I also know how incredibly poor my judgment was back then compared to now. I can only imagine what 20 years will do for me. That's why I actively seek out more experience in candidates because I believe it'll make them more competent and sharp at what they do. Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use. Most of my pre-startup experience is as a contractor/consultant.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  > Somebody with battle-scars is something a startup could really use. Most of my pre-startup experience is as a contractor/consultant. Lots of young engineers don't know how to interview. (In addition to being interviewed by young ones lately, I also realize how I've fucked it up back then.) Lots of them don't know how to listen. The vast majority don't know how much they don't know.
  - enjo 14y ago
    I also realize how I've fucked it up back then Really that's been the story of my 30's. A series of cringe-worthy realizations that I was not nearly as good at my job as I thought I was at 26.
- krakensden 14y ago
  I've worked with developers in their fifties- they're scary good.
  - codewright 14y ago
    As have I, but only when I was a contractor. I always looked forward to pairing up with the experienced engineers. I learned the most on those days.
  - jsaxton86 14y ago
    I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Age bias is awful, and I have worked with a lot of older developers who know their stuff and are extremely competent, but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.
    - reinhardt 14y ago
      No personal experience here but my gut feeling is that older developers are more likely to be closer to the one or the other extreme. The theory being that those who are average tend to move to middle/senior management, leaving behind those that are either brilliant hardcore hackers or incompetent clock punchers.
    - adrianhoward 14y ago
      I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Me to. And I've worked with devs in the 20s who are awful. And their 30s. And their 40s. And their 60s. I've also worked with great devs in all those age ranges. Proportions seem about the same to me. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that. I've not noticed a difference. I have noticed that it's harder to spot the folk in their 20s who don't learn and adapt quickly since folk in their 20s have to learn something to make any progress at all. Once that pressure is off and they've become fixated on Rails / C# / whatever they seem just as unlikely to change as any other age range. They just get fixated on the "cool" thing - so it takes longer to spot.
mortenjorck 14y ago
I've been meaning to write an article on this for awhile, but there's really no substitute for age diversity on a team. Having worked for the past year at a place with a fairly smooth gradient from just-out-of-school to used-COBOL-professionally, I can say from experience that it has been a benefit for both the older and younger employees. Of course, the key is still, as always, cultural fit. You have to have youngsters who are willing to take to heart a hard-learned lesson from a graybeard, and veteran devs who are willing to keep an open mind to a new technology espoused by the younger generation.

killitwithfire 14y ago

"I'm the CTO" ... "I'm 24 years old" mmmmmmkay....

reinhardt 14y ago

"... by dumb happy newbies with no private life." Interesting choice of words to attack ageism :)

codewright 14y ago
I know plenty of 20-somethings that are married (I'm from the midwest) and relatively experienced in their work. (6+ years professional experience) I also know yuppies angling for a "big win" whose only joy in life is playing Xbox at work and getting drunk. Who at the age of ~26 only have a couple years experience because they were too busy partying in college and didn't build anything while in school. But they totally know how to run a company because they 'get' product and engagement and read Hacker News. People come in all shapes and sizes. It's not about the age, it's about wisdom and where you are in life. You could be 26 or 56. I don't care as long as you care about your work and what you do.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

freyr 14y ago

> I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call them out for this ageism. And yet they appointed a 24 year old as CTO. Better pack up your stuff, since you refuse to tolerate it.

stevewillows 14y ago
Just because he's young doesn't mean it's ageism.
- freyr 14y ago
  I don't know where he works or the company's circumstances, but in most cases, only a small tech start up that values youth over experience (or is on a shoestring budget) will appoint someone in their early 20s to an executive-level position.
  - codewright 14y ago
    I dislike that this conversation became about me but: They'll usually do that when he's the most experienced person in the company (like I was and am). I've been working since I was 18, not 22. That makes for six years rather than the usual two, and the first 5-10 years of a career are pretty impactful for everyone. Further, they were very dense years spent studying on my own time and working a lot of contracts. I didn't sit in a junior position at a large corporation, I've had enough time to become a decent backend engineer in my own right but also develop a decent specialization. In addition to that, my contracting and consulting background has made me somewhat less provincial than when I started so I'm capable of relating to business needs as a C-level needs to. I don't question your capacity to perform your job without knowing you, please afford others the same respect. I was trying to talk about the prejudice in the industry, not have it projected against me in the opposite direction. (Against younger people)

Permit 14y ago

Doesn't shit-talking Nutrivise in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that...

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pyre 14y ago
> I'm always weirded out by people who call-out > their employer in a public space like that... The egg is apparently on your face. codewright did not mention his/her employer, and with no personal details in the user profile, I'm curious how you would consider this 'calling out' one's employer.
BasDirks 14y ago
You are the weird one doing the calling out. Flagged.
strlen 14y ago
> Doesn't shit-talking $company in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that... He doesn't mention employer publicly. I can't even reasonably assume it's $company (Do you have an axe to grind against either? I've flagged this, as it appears to be the case.) Furthermore, being critical reflects well on codewright in his capacity as an officer of a company. Being able to accept constructive criticism reflects well on $company (assuming it even is $company). (Not mentioning $company by name as hoping the comment I am replying to will get killed; codewright made a deliberate choice not to include personal details in his profile, so let's honour it.)