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Growth Marketers? Sure. Growth Hackers? Very rarely. I love your posts John, but "Hacker" implies a level of coding in my opinion, and I think most here on HN

Growth Marketers? Sure. Growth Hackers? Very rarely. I love your posts John, but "Hacker" implies a level of coding in my opinion, and I think most here on HN would agree. As someone who talks to a few dozen SEOs a week, 99% of them cannot code in a fashion needed to be a "Growth Hacker". It's not that they can't contribute to growth, it's just that the traditional methods SEOs use (content, technical fixes, social) would not be considered hacks, but just solid online marketing.

dohertyjf 14y ago
So hacks are not solid marketing? I think SEOs understand how people and the Internet work, and so we're well positioned to be the ones driving this forward. I've personally helped clients with growth strategies based off of new sections of their site to drive traffic using some very cool technical "hacks" that have worked terrificly well and are search engine friendly.
- scottkrager 14y ago
  I should have said "hacking" not "hacks". Hacking implies coding (at least to me), and a growth hacker uses programming skills to drive growth. I just don't see many SEOs doing that. I love SEOs, I think most are fantastic people, but when I think Growth Hacker I don't see the SEOs I talk with all the time.
  - dohertyjf 14y ago
    Fair enough, and I like your term "Growth Marketer". But, isn't all marketing focused towards growth (of something?) I guess if we're going to define it narrowly as user growth, then I could get on board with it.
  - glennericksen 14y ago
    I'm pretty sure even the YC application asks you to a describe a time you hacked a non-computer system. Seems reasonable to extrapolate that not all hacking involves "coding", but bending/manipulating/breaking(?) systems to accomplish your goal (in this case, growth) and maximize your return. No reason to disqualify SEO.
- ontheotherhand 14y ago
  "So hacks are not solid marketing?" How does that follow from "solid marketing doesn't make it a hack"? "I think SEOs understand how people and the Internet work" Yet you don't even understand the difference between "every ford is a car" and "every car is a ford" ... huh? What did I just read?
JonLim 14y ago
To go along with this point, SEO is just another tool in your marketing toolkit. To claim that SEO is the sole reason you're going to grow would be a mistake in my opinion. What about the branding decisions made long before? Or the work put into the marketing framework? The work that went into creatives? And I'm not even getting into the coding that goes into bringing everything together. SEO can provide growth, but only after you've used everything else in your arsenal to get the platform to the point that you are ready to start optimizing.
- vitalique 14y ago
  > SEO can provide growth, but only after you've used everything else in your arsenal to get the platform to the point that you are ready to start optimizing. Oh, how many times have I seen this mistake! SEO is one of your marketing tools, but (done right) it is not a premature optimization.
  - a5seo 14y ago
    Spot on. Definitely not any more of a premature optimization than usability, since SEO is usability for bots. So unless you really do not care about the crawlability and understandability of your site/app, you should be optimizing for bots in parallel with human usability.
JeremyMorgan 14y ago
I think people need to start breaking out of their current modes of thinking, and this article represents that. SEOs and Developers have more goals in common than people realize, and the approach is very similar. As long as we're talking about real SEOs, not these "guaranteed spots on Google" jokers, but people like John. SEOs are there to solve a problem. The problem of course is much deeper than getting your site noticed. It's a vision consisting of strategies with the following goals: The Basics: 1. Get the most traffic from search engines you can (obviously) 2. Ensure the traffic you get is from the people you want to reach 3. Ensure that you are providing what searchers are looking for 4. Try to build a brand and a vision people can understand 5. Build an audience that will keep returning to your site Now these things are solid online marketing, sure but there are other goals too, that are more "hacker" in nature. 6. Perform analytics to find out which methods are working 7. Finding the most optimum content to attract new traffic 8. Find what landing pages are creating customers 9. Finding the most optimum paths to lead to engagement Now this is starting to sound like hacking. We're all problem solvers here. This is gathering information and using it to get the best results possible. Like optimizing routines to save cycles. As a developer, what are you trying to do for a company? 1. Build software that solves problems for the most people possible (usually) 2. Ensure that your software is targeted towards the people who need it 3. Ensuring your software is solving their problems effectively 4. Making the user interface as effective as it can be (usually by some form of analytics) 5. Finding the best ways to save cycles and utilize hardware (again found with analytics) Do you see the parallels? This is exactly why I keep one foot in SEO, and one foot in Web Development, because they seem like entirely separate disciplines, but they have more in common than not. The name of the game here is optimization, and both fields strive for optimizing an experience. Calling someone a software "hacker" means they learn as much as they can about a process and refine it. Tweak, push, pull and stretch. They optimize software to better meet the needs of those who use it. A SEO is a "hacker" because they optimize the website to meet the needs of those who use it. It's not about writing code, it's about finding ways to do more with less. This is what I gather he's trying to say.
- darkmethod 14y ago
  Thank you for writing out your perspective on this. It had a positive impact on my perception of my coworkers. I see that they are simply looking for an optimized customer experience to solve real problems. Previously, I saw them as part of the team but not part of the "problem solving" team. My perspective has shifted. Thanks for sharing.
davemel37 14y ago
99% of the SEO's you talk to can't code? As a marketer, deeply entrenched in the SEO space, I can assure you that MOST TOP SEO's are first and foremost developers...More importantly, the coders that understand marketing are the ones that thrived and continue to thrive in the SEO world. Growth hacking is a bedrock of the best SEO practices out there. The best SEO is inherently viral to compel and force people to link to your content. Think about Youtube, and everyone embedding videos with links back to youtube... This is literally the definition of SEO strategy...finding ways to build into your product inherent link-bait. I would argue that Growth Hacking is a prerequisite to execute excellent SEO.
- scottkrager 14y ago
  I would totally agree that the best SEOs can code. But still stand by my 99% number : ) Most SEOs are not coders (knowing how to customize a Thesis is not coding in my view)
  - vitalique 14y ago
    I take it that you have either really high CS-culture standards even for 'coders', let alone 'hackers' (which is probably good), or really low standards for SEOs (which seems sad to me). I too am against slapping a 'hacker!' badge to every guy who knows how to write a fizzbuzz in Haskell, but I definitely wouldn't even consider calling someone a SEO if he can't code (and by coding I don't mean ability to tell HTML from CSS).

dohertyjf 14y ago

So hacks are not solid marketing? I think SEOs understand how people and the Internet work, and so we're well positioned to be the ones driving this forward. I've personally helped clients with growth strategies based off of new sections of their site to drive traffic using some very cool technical "hacks" that have worked terrificly well and are search engine friendly.

scottkrager 14y ago
I should have said "hacking" not "hacks". Hacking implies coding (at least to me), and a growth hacker uses programming skills to drive growth. I just don't see many SEOs doing that. I love SEOs, I think most are fantastic people, but when I think Growth Hacker I don't see the SEOs I talk with all the time.
- dohertyjf 14y ago
  Fair enough, and I like your term "Growth Marketer". But, isn't all marketing focused towards growth (of something?) I guess if we're going to define it narrowly as user growth, then I could get on board with it.
- glennericksen 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure even the YC application asks you to a describe a time you hacked a non-computer system. Seems reasonable to extrapolate that not all hacking involves "coding", but bending/manipulating/breaking(?) systems to accomplish your goal (in this case, growth) and maximize your return. No reason to disqualify SEO.
ontheotherhand 14y ago
"So hacks are not solid marketing?" How does that follow from "solid marketing doesn't make it a hack"? "I think SEOs understand how people and the Internet work" Yet you don't even understand the difference between "every ford is a car" and "every car is a ford" ... huh? What did I just read?

JonLim 14y ago

To go along with this point, SEO is just another tool in your marketing toolkit. To claim that SEO is the sole reason you're going to grow would be a mistake in my opinion. What about the branding decisions made long before? Or the work put into the marketing framework? The work that went into creatives? And I'm not even getting into the coding that goes into bringing everything together. SEO can provide growth, but only after you've used everything else in your arsenal to get the platform to the point that you are ready to start optimizing.

vitalique 14y ago
> SEO can provide growth, but only after you've used everything else in your arsenal to get the platform to the point that you are ready to start optimizing. Oh, how many times have I seen this mistake! SEO is one of your marketing tools, but (done right) it is not a premature optimization.
- a5seo 14y ago
  Spot on. Definitely not any more of a premature optimization than usability, since SEO is usability for bots. So unless you really do not care about the crawlability and understandability of your site/app, you should be optimizing for bots in parallel with human usability.

JeremyMorgan 14y ago

I think people need to start breaking out of their current modes of thinking, and this article represents that. SEOs and Developers have more goals in common than people realize, and the approach is very similar. As long as we're talking about real SEOs, not these "guaranteed spots on Google" jokers, but people like John. SEOs are there to solve a problem. The problem of course is much deeper than getting your site noticed. It's a vision consisting of strategies with the following goals: The Basics: 1. Get the most traffic from search engines you can (obviously) 2. Ensure the traffic you get is from the people you want to reach 3. Ensure that you are providing what searchers are looking for 4. Try to build a brand and a vision people can understand 5. Build an audience that will keep returning to your site Now these things are solid online marketing, sure but there are other goals too, that are more "hacker" in nature. 6. Perform analytics to find out which methods are working 7. Finding the most optimum content to attract new traffic 8. Find what landing pages are creating customers 9. Finding the most optimum paths to lead to engagement Now this is starting to sound like hacking. We're all problem solvers here. This is gathering information and using it to get the best results possible. Like optimizing routines to save cycles. As a developer, what are you trying to do for a company? 1. Build software that solves problems for the most people possible (usually) 2. Ensure that your software is targeted towards the people who need it 3. Ensuring your software is solving their problems effectively 4. Making the user interface as effective as it can be (usually by some form of analytics) 5. Finding the best ways to save cycles and utilize hardware (again found with analytics) Do you see the parallels? This is exactly why I keep one foot in SEO, and one foot in Web Development, because they seem like entirely separate disciplines, but they have more in common than not. The name of the game here is optimization, and both fields strive for optimizing an experience. Calling someone a software "hacker" means they learn as much as they can about a process and refine it. Tweak, push, pull and stretch. They optimize software to better meet the needs of those who use it. A SEO is a "hacker" because they optimize the website to meet the needs of those who use it. It's not about writing code, it's about finding ways to do more with less. This is what I gather he's trying to say.

darkmethod 14y ago
Thank you for writing out your perspective on this. It had a positive impact on my perception of my coworkers. I see that they are simply looking for an optimized customer experience to solve real problems. Previously, I saw them as part of the team but not part of the "problem solving" team. My perspective has shifted. Thanks for sharing.

davemel37 14y ago

99% of the SEO's you talk to can't code? As a marketer, deeply entrenched in the SEO space, I can assure you that MOST TOP SEO's are first and foremost developers...More importantly, the coders that understand marketing are the ones that thrived and continue to thrive in the SEO world. Growth hacking is a bedrock of the best SEO practices out there. The best SEO is inherently viral to compel and force people to link to your content. Think about Youtube, and everyone embedding videos with links back to youtube... This is literally the definition of SEO strategy...finding ways to build into your product inherent link-bait. I would argue that Growth Hacking is a prerequisite to execute excellent SEO.

scottkrager 14y ago
I would totally agree that the best SEOs can code. But still stand by my 99% number : ) Most SEOs are not coders (knowing how to customize a Thesis is not coding in my view)
- vitalique 14y ago
  I take it that you have either really high CS-culture standards even for 'coders', let alone 'hackers' (which is probably good), or really low standards for SEOs (which seems sad to me). I too am against slapping a 'hacker!' badge to every guy who knows how to write a fizzbuzz in Haskell, but I definitely wouldn't even consider calling someone a SEO if he can't code (and by coding I don't mean ability to tell HTML from CSS).