4 ms·

Why are people accessing emails from the webUI. Email is SMTP and IMAP, use any number of clients to access your email.

by vachina 5mo ago

rb666 5mo ago
Because Fastmail has a fantastic Web UI, have been using it for years.
- bayindirh 5mo ago
  Nothing is more fantastic(er) than a native application handling multiple e-mail accounts without effort or lag. Thunderbird and macOS mail are great for that. Supporting everything from GMail to personal mail servers, and everything in between.
  - fuzztester 5mo ago
    What is Thunderbird written in. #lazyweb #nollm ;)
locknitpicker 5mo ago
> Why are people accessing emails from the webUI. Email is SMTP and IMAP, use any number of clients to access your email. Because the UX of most email clients is extremely bad when compared with the webui of these email providers.
- notpushkin 5mo ago
  Try Mailspring. I’m a huge fan: https://github.com/Foundry376/Mailspring https://github.com/Foundry376/Mailspring
  - dotancohen 5mo ago
    That's an electron app. What does it offer that Thunderbird doesn't?
    - locknitpicker 5mo ago
      I would go further and ask what do electron apps offer in the way of improvements that WebApps don't. In mobile, webview-based apps exist mostly because they provide more ways to gather data on users.
      - notpushkin 5mo ago
        > I would go further and ask what do electron apps offer in the way of improvements that WebApps don't. If there was a way to run Mailspring on the web, I’d switch in a minute! I’ve tried to port it one time, but it got a bit tricky. Mailspring uses a native module for syncing the mail, which would have to run either on a server somewhere or in a web worker. I think the web worker makes more sense nowadays, and would make it an offline-first app, but there’s a catch: how do you connect to IMAP/SMTP from a web browser? Running the sync engine on a server is possible, but you have to have a server. It could make sense, though, if you’re running your own email server and want a killer webmail app to go with it.
    - notpushkin 5mo ago
      Thunderbird is great. I’ve been using it a long time, too, and feature-wise, I think Thunderbird is way ahead. I just find Mailspring a bit more... pleasant to use? And I think it’ll be an easier switch for people coming off Gmail Web, which is why I’m recommending it. (Also... Thunderbird is not that different from an Electron app itself. It uses Gecko instead of Blink, and has a few bits of XUL here and there, but the core premise is the same. Though it doesn’t use React at least!)
- Gigachad 5mo ago
  It's also IMAP is an awful protocol with so many glaring issues its impossible for a modern client to paper over them. Fastmail invented JMAP but it doesn't seem to have taken off with any other providers.
  - GoblinSlayer 5mo ago
    >so many glaring issues like what?
    - Gigachad 5mo ago
      From memory, there are no bulk actions, so if you want to say select all emails and delete you have to send thousands of requests. If you want to rename a folder you have to send a request for every email in the folder. There is no way to set up filters that run server side, there is no way to get push notifications. And probably a million other things that don’t hold up today.
      - Freak_NL 5mo ago
        Sending those thousands of requests is something your mail client does for you. Deleting 5000 emails takes a few minutes, but how often do you do that? I can select a bunch of emails in Thunderbird and just do stuff with it just fine. For server side filters I just set them up in Fastmail using the web UI. That's the type of action I do once or twice a year, so totally OK to hop on over to the web app for just that. I have no idea what you mean by 'push notifications'. I have Thunderbird open on my desktop, and it shows me when there is email. I have K9 on my smartphone, and it shows me when there is email (I don't have it set up to display notifications, but that seems possible). That's basically all I need to do email.
      - GoblinSlayer 5mo ago
        Deletion is done by marking messages with deleted flag and then expunge to delete flagged messages. AIU rename exists: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#section-6.3.5 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#section-6.3.5 Push notifications: https://github.com/freswa/dovecot-xaps-plugin https://github.com/freswa/dovecot-xaps-plugin
pmontra 5mo ago
Probably the nothing to install experience. Every Android phone comes with Gmail and every device has a web browser. Do people have to install Gmail on iOS? I'm using Thunderbird with POP3 accounts, download on my laptop then remove from the server, daily backups. My phone has K9 (the old one with the UI I like) and I never remove messages from the phone. When I send mail from the phone I bcc myself so I can see the message from my laptop later. Why? Because I don't like to leave my mail forever on somebody's else server. They can lock me out at any time (it will probably never happen) and my mail is mine. Would I recommend this to anybody? Of course not. Is it a problem not to have access to all of my mail when I don't have my laptop with me? It never happened to be a problem and it's always less likely to be a problem because of all the messages that are exchanged outside email and on mobile first platforms, even for work.
- przmk 5mo ago
  > Do people have to install Gmail on iOS? Why would Gmail be pre-installed on iOS?
  - aaarrm 5mo ago
    They aren't sure, that's why they are asking..
- hdgvhicv 5mo ago
  iOS comes with a mail client. It connects to my exchange, gmail and Zoho accounts. You don’t install gmail, you connect a mail client to it or visit it in a web browser.
  - noduerme 5mo ago
    This is obviously better, but until just now it never occurred to me that this would be the way iOS users would engage with gmail, since I've only ever used Android. I always thought the iOS built-in email app was just for Apple mail or something. TIL. We really do live in separate bubbles.
  - jorisw 5mo ago
wodenokoto 5mo ago
Because it is really nice. I prefer it to thunderbird/(apple) Mail. I get the same interface on my own computer as when I go on some other machine.
frereubu 5mo ago
I find myself using the web UI because it's much faster than MacOS Mail, which often gets a bit stuck when downloading new emails via IMAP. I'd prefer to use a native app, but it happened without me thinking - I just ended up going for the fastest option unconsciously.
- noduerme 5mo ago
  Try Thunderbird. It's easy to set up IMAP to gmail, and it's very quick. Keep what you want on the server (or download and delete) and just never look at the web client again.
  - katsura 5mo ago
    I wanted to use Thunderbird, but there is no Thunderbird for iOS (well, there is one in development, you can install it through TestFlight, but didn't work at all the last time I tried it). I try to use the same apps everywhere to have some consistency.
a96 5mo ago
A lot of providers don't give you imap anymore or it's an extra cost option. SMTP also comes with a ton of traps because of spam fighting measures. Also monopolies and mobile devices and skill issues.
- dgellow 5mo ago
  Which providers don’t give IMAP?
tpm 5mo ago
Every desktop mail client is bad in its own way. And then I have to set it up on all computers I use. Web UI just works.
- jorisw 5mo ago
  Guess you've tried every desktop mail client? I only use one computer and my local mail app (macOS's in my case) just works. I can't imagine trading it for visiting some web site to read my email.
  - tpm 5mo ago
    Good for you. I've tried a few during the last 30 years and once Web UIs started being usable (after gmail), I use them if possible.
  - vladgur 5mo ago
    macOS mail app is a special type of terrible especially if you deal with multiple email accounts. Every os upgrade causes various bugs such as search index all of the sudden not working and you have to reset and reimport all your mailboxes
    - fauigerzigerk 5mo ago
      I agree. Mail.app is one of the buggiest pieces of software I have ever used. It has some nice features as well, especially the editor. But some of the bugs I have experienced were catastrophic, such as silently failing exports that appeared to have completed successfully (this was recently fixed after years).
    - mesrik 5mo ago
      I've used Mail.app since 2004 and have not had any of those problems except searching using Spotlight have occasionally been broken over the years, but never searching within the app. And I've had both multiple accounts various servers both private and work. And dozens of work-related role aliases which Mail.app correctly always used when replying. No problems there. Neither I have had to rebuild sqlite mail folder db, but did have some quirks first when work emails were transferred to Office365 which wanted to rename folders etc. nuisance, 2FA worked also worked fine since IIRC Mojave. I've had some addons MacGPG, sorting and maintenance scripts too. MacGPG does need some attention when upgrading though besides paying for subscription it moved time ago. I've used also Thunderbird, mostly with linux. And used and tested whole lot of various clients since Elm was a thing -80's, then Pine, mutt etc. The macOS Mail.app is fast reliable in my opinion, but sure there are things in its UX it could be yet improved. But still it's been long time among best and never broken or let me down over 20 years, both work and private use.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
abc123abc123 5mo ago
This is the way. Use a tui client like alpine or mutt, and enjoy managing 100s of thousands of emails in ms. I feel physical pain when I have to see colleagues and acquaintances wait for several seconds in their heavy web interfaces. I can manipulate batches of emails with terminal tools and the power of Maildir.
- MarsIronPI 5mo ago
  I do the same, but with mu/mu4e in Emacs. Not having to open a browser to read email also helps with staying focused for me.
multjoy 5mo ago
I migrated from gmail to Migadu. They have a webmail client, but they make a point that they Do Standards. They also let you host as many domains as you like and the servers are all EU based.
klibertp 5mo ago
The amount of configuration required to rival what's available out of the box in Web clients (especially indexing, searching, filtering, blocking, etc.) is a bit too much for someone who isn't already interested in it. I tried GNUS in Emacs and a few TUI apps; I do like having all my emails accessible locally, but for day-to-day use, web clients are more convenient. I haven't tried Thunderbird or Outlook (if it still has a local version), though, so maybe I'd have all the conveniences I want there - but since I already have them in Fastmail, I just don't have an incentive to switch.
zeta0134 5mo ago
Well I usually already have my browser open, and "Ctrl+T, 'fa', [enter]" loads up my email basically instantly. I don't want email notifications (or any notifications, really) so a local app just seems like it would introduce a lot of clunk for not much benefit.
prepend 5mo ago
I like using the webui because my mailbox is too large to pull down locally and it’s easier to handle through the web. I also have it pulling to local clients that just keep a few messages. Maybe 30% of the time is webui. Has worked well for me for 30+ years (substituting telneting in and using pine until webuis existed). “Email in the cloud mainly” is a useful pattern.
aboardRat4 5mo ago
>use any number of clients to access your email. Your car can have any colour, as long as it is black. All native email clients are stuck in 2005, lack most basic features, and have bugs not fixed in decades. Also, most providers have poor support for new IMAP features, such as NOTIFY.
- alsetmusic 5mo ago
  I loved Mimestream when I worked at a place that was on Google. https://mimestream.com/ https://mimestream.com/
  - ymolodtsov 5mo ago
    But Mimestream is good specifically because it uses Gmail Sync API, not IMAP/SMTP.
  - aboardRat4 5mo ago
    50 dollars for an app on an OS which I don't use, when Telegram is free and works everywhere?
- MarsIronPI 5mo ago
  Name one feature (i.e. thing that requires client support, not UI) that's new in email since 2005 and that's also worth having.
  - bigfatkitten 5mo ago
    JMAP. Modern authentication. S/MIME with cryptography that isn’t RSA.
    - cindyllm 5mo ago
      [dead]
  - aboardRat4 5mo ago
    Without IMAP NOTIFY email is almost unusable. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5465.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5465.html It's from 2009. Without managesieve (2010, https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5804/ https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5804/ ), any decent filtering is impossible. (And no, it's not supported by almost any email client) JMAP has already been mentioned. I also don't remember any email clients supporting carddav. >not UI Why not UI? UI is very important. Even such a basic thing as muting folders works like cr*ap in k9mail. Is it better in "fairemail"?
newaccountman2 5mo ago
I never understood why anyone would want to download an application to do something as simple as checking email.
- thisislife2 5mo ago
  To have a copy of your emails on your device, for backup, and offline use.
  - Kinrany 5mo ago
    A web UI can do that
    - thisislife2 5mo ago
      The comment I was replying to was wondering why people installed apps to read email instead of using the browser based clients. So I don't understand your point ...?
      - Kinrany 5mo ago
        You can have a copy of your emails for offline use in your browser. Less so as a reliable backup.
        thisislife2 5mo ago
        To be clear, a "Web UI" usually refers to a desktop or mobile application whose user-interface is built with web technology (HTML, CSS, JS etc.) that is rendered using a webview component in the application. You don't refer to a website (even if it is a web-based application like GMail) as "Web UI". It is still called a website. And while you are right that browsers today can store data for offline use, nobody considers it good enough for a backup.
    - vachina 5mo ago
      A web UI cannot do that. It is simply not possible.

Why are people accessing emails from the webUI. Email is SMTP and IMAP, use any number of clients to access your email.

by vachina 5mo ago

Why are people accessing emails from the webUI. Email is SMTP and IMAP, use any number of clients to access your email.

rb666 5mo ago

Because Fastmail has a fantastic Web UI, have been using it for years.

bayindirh 5mo ago
Nothing is more fantastic(er) than a native application handling multiple e-mail accounts without effort or lag. Thunderbird and macOS mail are great for that. Supporting everything from GMail to personal mail servers, and everything in between.
- fuzztester 5mo ago
  What is Thunderbird written in. #lazyweb #nollm ;)

locknitpicker 5mo ago

> Why are people accessing emails from the webUI. Email is SMTP and IMAP, use any number of clients to access your email. Because the UX of most email clients is extremely bad when compared with the webui of these email providers.

notpushkin 5mo ago
Try Mailspring. I’m a huge fan: https://github.com/Foundry376/Mailspring https://github.com/Foundry376/Mailspring
- dotancohen 5mo ago
  That's an electron app. What does it offer that Thunderbird doesn't?
  - locknitpicker 5mo ago
    I would go further and ask what do electron apps offer in the way of improvements that WebApps don't. In mobile, webview-based apps exist mostly because they provide more ways to gather data on users.
    - notpushkin 5mo ago
      > I would go further and ask what do electron apps offer in the way of improvements that WebApps don't. If there was a way to run Mailspring on the web, I’d switch in a minute! I’ve tried to port it one time, but it got a bit tricky. Mailspring uses a native module for syncing the mail, which would have to run either on a server somewhere or in a web worker. I think the web worker makes more sense nowadays, and would make it an offline-first app, but there’s a catch: how do you connect to IMAP/SMTP from a web browser? Running the sync engine on a server is possible, but you have to have a server. It could make sense, though, if you’re running your own email server and want a killer webmail app to go with it.
  - notpushkin 5mo ago
    Thunderbird is great. I’ve been using it a long time, too, and feature-wise, I think Thunderbird is way ahead. I just find Mailspring a bit more... pleasant to use? And I think it’ll be an easier switch for people coming off Gmail Web, which is why I’m recommending it. (Also... Thunderbird is not that different from an Electron app itself. It uses Gecko instead of Blink, and has a few bits of XUL here and there, but the core premise is the same. Though it doesn’t use React at least!)
Gigachad 5mo ago
It's also IMAP is an awful protocol with so many glaring issues its impossible for a modern client to paper over them. Fastmail invented JMAP but it doesn't seem to have taken off with any other providers.
- GoblinSlayer 5mo ago
  >so many glaring issues like what?
  - Gigachad 5mo ago
    From memory, there are no bulk actions, so if you want to say select all emails and delete you have to send thousands of requests. If you want to rename a folder you have to send a request for every email in the folder. There is no way to set up filters that run server side, there is no way to get push notifications. And probably a million other things that don’t hold up today.
    - Freak_NL 5mo ago
      Sending those thousands of requests is something your mail client does for you. Deleting 5000 emails takes a few minutes, but how often do you do that? I can select a bunch of emails in Thunderbird and just do stuff with it just fine. For server side filters I just set them up in Fastmail using the web UI. That's the type of action I do once or twice a year, so totally OK to hop on over to the web app for just that. I have no idea what you mean by 'push notifications'. I have Thunderbird open on my desktop, and it shows me when there is email. I have K9 on my smartphone, and it shows me when there is email (I don't have it set up to display notifications, but that seems possible). That's basically all I need to do email.
    - GoblinSlayer 5mo ago
      Deletion is done by marking messages with deleted flag and then expunge to delete flagged messages. AIU rename exists: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#section-6.3.5 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3501#section-6.3.5 Push notifications: https://github.com/freswa/dovecot-xaps-plugin https://github.com/freswa/dovecot-xaps-plugin

pmontra 5mo ago

Probably the nothing to install experience. Every Android phone comes with Gmail and every device has a web browser. Do people have to install Gmail on iOS? I'm using Thunderbird with POP3 accounts, download on my laptop then remove from the server, daily backups. My phone has K9 (the old one with the UI I like) and I never remove messages from the phone. When I send mail from the phone I bcc myself so I can see the message from my laptop later. Why? Because I don't like to leave my mail forever on somebody's else server. They can lock me out at any time (it will probably never happen) and my mail is mine. Would I recommend this to anybody? Of course not. Is it a problem not to have access to all of my mail when I don't have my laptop with me? It never happened to be a problem and it's always less likely to be a problem because of all the messages that are exchanged outside email and on mobile first platforms, even for work.

przmk 5mo ago
> Do people have to install Gmail on iOS? Why would Gmail be pre-installed on iOS?
- aaarrm 5mo ago
  They aren't sure, that's why they are asking..
hdgvhicv 5mo ago
iOS comes with a mail client. It connects to my exchange, gmail and Zoho accounts. You don’t install gmail, you connect a mail client to it or visit it in a web browser.
- noduerme 5mo ago
  This is obviously better, but until just now it never occurred to me that this would be the way iOS users would engage with gmail, since I've only ever used Android. I always thought the iOS built-in email app was just for Apple mail or something. TIL. We really do live in separate bubbles.
- jorisw 5mo ago

wodenokoto 5mo ago

Because it is really nice. I prefer it to thunderbird/(apple) Mail. I get the same interface on my own computer as when I go on some other machine.

frereubu 5mo ago

I find myself using the web UI because it's much faster than MacOS Mail, which often gets a bit stuck when downloading new emails via IMAP. I'd prefer to use a native app, but it happened without me thinking - I just ended up going for the fastest option unconsciously.

noduerme 5mo ago
Try Thunderbird. It's easy to set up IMAP to gmail, and it's very quick. Keep what you want on the server (or download and delete) and just never look at the web client again.
- katsura 5mo ago
  I wanted to use Thunderbird, but there is no Thunderbird for iOS (well, there is one in development, you can install it through TestFlight, but didn't work at all the last time I tried it). I try to use the same apps everywhere to have some consistency.

a96 5mo ago

A lot of providers don't give you imap anymore or it's an extra cost option. SMTP also comes with a ton of traps because of spam fighting measures. Also monopolies and mobile devices and skill issues.

dgellow 5mo ago
Which providers don’t give IMAP?

tpm 5mo ago

Every desktop mail client is bad in its own way. And then I have to set it up on all computers I use. Web UI just works.

jorisw 5mo ago
Guess you've tried every desktop mail client? I only use one computer and my local mail app (macOS's in my case) just works. I can't imagine trading it for visiting some web site to read my email.
- tpm 5mo ago
  Good for you. I've tried a few during the last 30 years and once Web UIs started being usable (after gmail), I use them if possible.
- vladgur 5mo ago
  macOS mail app is a special type of terrible especially if you deal with multiple email accounts. Every os upgrade causes various bugs such as search index all of the sudden not working and you have to reset and reimport all your mailboxes
  - fauigerzigerk 5mo ago
    I agree. Mail.app is one of the buggiest pieces of software I have ever used. It has some nice features as well, especially the editor. But some of the bugs I have experienced were catastrophic, such as silently failing exports that appeared to have completed successfully (this was recently fixed after years).
  - mesrik 5mo ago
    I've used Mail.app since 2004 and have not had any of those problems except searching using Spotlight have occasionally been broken over the years, but never searching within the app. And I've had both multiple accounts various servers both private and work. And dozens of work-related role aliases which Mail.app correctly always used when replying. No problems there. Neither I have had to rebuild sqlite mail folder db, but did have some quirks first when work emails were transferred to Office365 which wanted to rename folders etc. nuisance, 2FA worked also worked fine since IIRC Mojave. I've had some addons MacGPG, sorting and maintenance scripts too. MacGPG does need some attention when upgrading though besides paying for subscription it moved time ago. I've used also Thunderbird, mostly with linux. And used and tested whole lot of various clients since Elm was a thing -80's, then Pine, mutt etc. The macOS Mail.app is fast reliable in my opinion, but sure there are things in its UX it could be yet improved. But still it's been long time among best and never broken or let me down over 20 years, both work and private use.

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

abc123abc123 5mo ago

This is the way. Use a tui client like alpine or mutt, and enjoy managing 100s of thousands of emails in ms. I feel physical pain when I have to see colleagues and acquaintances wait for several seconds in their heavy web interfaces. I can manipulate batches of emails with terminal tools and the power of Maildir.

MarsIronPI 5mo ago
I do the same, but with mu/mu4e in Emacs. Not having to open a browser to read email also helps with staying focused for me.

multjoy 5mo ago

I migrated from gmail to Migadu. They have a webmail client, but they make a point that they Do Standards. They also let you host as many domains as you like and the servers are all EU based.

klibertp 5mo ago

The amount of configuration required to rival what's available out of the box in Web clients (especially indexing, searching, filtering, blocking, etc.) is a bit too much for someone who isn't already interested in it. I tried GNUS in Emacs and a few TUI apps; I do like having all my emails accessible locally, but for day-to-day use, web clients are more convenient. I haven't tried Thunderbird or Outlook (if it still has a local version), though, so maybe I'd have all the conveniences I want there - but since I already have them in Fastmail, I just don't have an incentive to switch.

zeta0134 5mo ago

Well I usually already have my browser open, and "Ctrl+T, 'fa', [enter]" loads up my email basically instantly. I don't want email notifications (or any notifications, really) so a local app just seems like it would introduce a lot of clunk for not much benefit.

prepend 5mo ago

I like using the webui because my mailbox is too large to pull down locally and it’s easier to handle through the web. I also have it pulling to local clients that just keep a few messages. Maybe 30% of the time is webui. Has worked well for me for 30+ years (substituting telneting in and using pine until webuis existed). “Email in the cloud mainly” is a useful pattern.

aboardRat4 5mo ago

>use any number of clients to access your email. Your car can have any colour, as long as it is black. All native email clients are stuck in 2005, lack most basic features, and have bugs not fixed in decades. Also, most providers have poor support for new IMAP features, such as NOTIFY.

alsetmusic 5mo ago
I loved Mimestream when I worked at a place that was on Google. https://mimestream.com/ https://mimestream.com/
- ymolodtsov 5mo ago
  But Mimestream is good specifically because it uses Gmail Sync API, not IMAP/SMTP.
- aboardRat4 5mo ago
  50 dollars for an app on an OS which I don't use, when Telegram is free and works everywhere?
MarsIronPI 5mo ago
Name one feature (i.e. thing that requires client support, not UI) that's new in email since 2005 and that's also worth having.
- bigfatkitten 5mo ago
  JMAP. Modern authentication. S/MIME with cryptography that isn’t RSA.
  - cindyllm 5mo ago
    [dead]
- aboardRat4 5mo ago
  Without IMAP NOTIFY email is almost unusable. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5465.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5465.html It's from 2009. Without managesieve (2010, https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5804/ https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5804/ ), any decent filtering is impossible. (And no, it's not supported by almost any email client) JMAP has already been mentioned. I also don't remember any email clients supporting carddav. >not UI Why not UI? UI is very important. Even such a basic thing as muting folders works like cr*ap in k9mail. Is it better in "fairemail"?

newaccountman2 5mo ago

I never understood why anyone would want to download an application to do something as simple as checking email.

thisislife2 5mo ago
To have a copy of your emails on your device, for backup, and offline use.
- Kinrany 5mo ago
  A web UI can do that
  - thisislife2 5mo ago
    The comment I was replying to was wondering why people installed apps to read email instead of using the browser based clients. So I don't understand your point ...?
    - Kinrany 5mo ago
      You can have a copy of your emails for offline use in your browser. Less so as a reliable backup.
      - thisislife2 5mo ago
        To be clear, a "Web UI" usually refers to a desktop or mobile application whose user-interface is built with web technology (HTML, CSS, JS etc.) that is rendered using a webview component in the application. You don't refer to a website (even if it is a web-based application like GMail) as "Web UI". It is still called a website. And while you are right that browsers today can store data for offline use, nobody considers it good enough for a backup.
  - vachina 5mo ago
    A web UI cannot do that. It is simply not possible.