8 ms·

I've got a friend whos a master tech/trainer with our state automotive body, and is HV certified etc for dealing with these cars. He's currently got a BYD Shark

I've got a friend whos a master tech/trainer with our state automotive body, and is HV certified etc for dealing with these cars. He's currently got a BYD Shark strewn across his workshop for an autopsy. I have to say I'm super impressed with how heavy duty everything is. The control arms, subframes, etc all look good and don't fit the 'chinese car bad' narrative you always hear. The powertrain components all look to be extremely high quality. I've poked around a few EV's with him now, and I do feel like the Chinese market cars are evolving to a really good standard faster than their Korean counterparts did back in the 80s/90s.

yuye 5mo ago
>The control arms, subframes, etc all look good and don't fit the 'chinese car bad' narrative you always hear. While I think the "chinese quality bad" narrative still applies to many Chinese brands, this isn't as universal as it was in the past. I think my eyes were first opened when I bought myself a Huawei phone(before the Google ban). My first few smartphones had been Samsung, I've always felt the term "planned obsolence" was the best way to describe these phones: After just a year, the phone felt considerably slower, and after two it was almost unusable. Huawei flagship phones were similar in price to Samsung, but I felt they lasted way longer.
- HerbManic 5mo ago
  I have had a fairly good run with a lot of these Chinese phones. Huawei when we could still get them was great. Xiaomi is great build quality but they are rotting out their OS with too much bloat and up sell. Oppo has been brilliant in that they are built well, cheap and allow you strip out anything you don't want.
  - yuye 5mo ago
    I had one of the last available Huawei phones, the P30 Pro, for 3 years. The only reason I had to get a new phone is because it got stolen. >Xiaomi is great build quality but they are rotting out their OS with too much bloat and up sell. I've tried Xiaomi phones in their stores a few times. I feel like they're trying to copy the look and feel of iOS in a way, and I generally don't like the iOS UX.
- King-Aaron 5mo ago
  Oh man I miss my Huawei phones. I had an Oppo at one stage too. As an aside the best phone I ever had was a HTC One X, another brand that I sorely miss.
- beAbU 5mo ago
  Pre google ban huawei phones were incredible. 2-day batteries, great screens, fantastic cameras and an awesome price. I had a Samsung after my last huawei and it felt like a solid downgrade, even though the samsung was way more expensive. FYI, if you are looking for a post google huawei, check out honor phones.
- dzhiurgis 5mo ago
  MG ZS EV and BYD Atto 3 have a lot of issues in NZ/AU, so it's not without a merit. I'm sure they improved with latest models tho.
- handle584 5mo ago
  That's exactly how Chinese android market works, every phone/pad is No.1 upon release and within a few week's PR campaign. After a couple months a new one is released with another No.1 bla-bla, while the old one goes on life-support. Also have to mention their ads, built into the system, when every app opens, when you switch back, f*king everywhere. The funny thing is if you switch language to English or use it overseas, some of the ads will go away, ironic.
dakolli 5mo ago
I'd rather own Chinese everything over American. Everything America makes is slop and corners are cut for profits so the owners of companies can own their third home and maybe a yacht. The truth is Chinese engineering quality exceeds the West in almost every domain at this point. I'd move there given the opportunity, the business owners of America are willing to poison and put the lives of their fellow citizens at risk for literal pieces of paper. I'm ashamed to be American.
- HerbManic 5mo ago
  I agree with the quality of some of the stuff coming out of China but when it comes to poisons and risking the lives of citizens, I have some bad news for you. That is how they undercut so heavily by foregoing those standards.
  - emodendroket 5mo ago
    China has moved beyond being a "value" manufacturer and they've cleaned up a lot.
  - don_esteban 5mo ago
    In China, they hang those that are responsible. In US, they get slap on their hand.
    - King-Aaron 5mo ago
      Or they get cabinet positions.
    - HerbManic 5mo ago
      Ha, yeah that is a fair point.
- davidwritesbugs 5mo ago
  Not saying you are wrong about many US business owners but having travelled in China I can tell you that Chinese companies have no qualms about poisoning their neighbours for enhanced profits - my guide there said it was what he hated about his country. Money drives ethics pretty much everywhere I reckon.
gofastercloud 5mo ago
In the last few years Chinese manufacturing has reached a very high-level. The reason most people still believe that Chinese-made stuff is poor quality is because they will do what they are told and they are usually told “make this as cheap as possible” by whoever is paying the bills. While I reckon some other countries still have specialist manufacturing in key areas that surpasses China, most “common” parts can be made in China to a standard that meets or exceeds Western countries, if you’re willing to pay for it.
- acdha 5mo ago
  > The reason most people still believe that Chinese-made stuff is poor quality is because they will do what they are told and they are usually told “make this as cheap as possible” by whoever is paying the bills. I’m reminded of all the dismissals people made about the skill levels of Indian software developers when the explanation was that the more skilled ones knew they could do better than the MBAs were offering to make the savings sound even more impressive.
  - p_l 5mo ago
    Unfortunately, the manager pushing the outsourcing pockets the money, outsourcing company pockets the money, and the local and indian teams get to be abused and latter gets extra blame for things outside their control. I would say the problem is heavily structural and linked to few companies that very much pursue lowest possible effort, harming both employee and customer. We had a company that infamously pursued a somewhat similar (just with not as much leverage over employees) strategy in Poland - a common refrain was how other companies would get people jumping jobs from them who gave variants of "I needed some spending money while finishing my degree, escaped as soon as I could" story. Unfortunately it seems a bit harder to do when some places apparently hire with only category appearing to be "according to census they speak english", then put them on project with minimal training and zero time or space to acquire more training.
    - acdha 5mo ago
      Yes - I remember one time hearing someone from a big consulting company make the argument that even the top Indian graduates would work for peanuts (even by local standards) and asking them how likely it was that they’d be that smart but unable to determine their market value. This was unsurprising after my entire life hearing people complain about declining quality and imported junk while always picking the cheapest item on the shelf at the store, even when they had plenty of money for a better quality option. There’s just a certain mindset which can’t look past the lowest possible price.
emodendroket 5mo ago
People talking about Chinese manufacturing all being junk are completely stuck in the past.
- UncleOxidant 5mo ago
  My grandfather in the 1970s used to complain about crappy Japanese tools. By the 1980s they were world-class. Same is happening with Chinese manufacturing.
  - krelian 5mo ago
    There is a joke just about that in Back to the Future (1985)!
    - StilesCrisis 5mo ago
      In BttF2, it is taken to the logical extreme and Marty's boss is Mister Fujitsu-san: https://youtu.be/UlEFqR4SaVA https://youtu.be/UlEFqR4SaVA
      - WorldMaker 5mo ago
        It also recurs in BTTF3 with Marty and 1950's Doc needing to replace a single Japanese-made IC with a large vacuum tube assembly.
  - Theodores 5mo ago
    My great-grandfather used to complain about crappy German tools. My great-great-grandfather used to complain about crappy Scottish tools. He was English. I am not sure you can buy as much as a paperclip made in England now. Has to be said that nobody on this side of the pond ever complained about the quality of American Snap On tools though, just so long as the boss was paying for them.
    - pjc50 5mo ago
      Some of the old Sheffield toolmakers are still going: https://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/ https://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/ The UK has mostly moved up the value chain. We make satellites and turbines now.
Toutouxc 5mo ago
I have a Chinese EV too, an MG4 built by SAIC. It’s a really cheap car, significantly cheaper than its non-Chinese counterparts like the VW ID.3 or (roughly) a Hyundai Kona. The factory rust protection was maybe a bit on the lighter side, but everything else on it looks completely normal. The drivetrain is simple (no heat exchange mechanism between battery coolant and motor coolant, a slightly whiny motor), but also genuinely competent and modern for a 2022 design (a mature skateboard RWD platform with a thin CTP battery with large cells and generous cell/coolant heat exchange). There are no obvious wtf solutions, nothing that would look too thin or too flimsy. The infotainment and the SW of the car does have the occasional funny moments, but all that is happening on what looks and feels like a solid piece of hardware.
- hvb2 5mo ago
  Cars only show if they're well made after like a decade? These are not washing machines or something. Sadly that's also why it's hard to buy a new car, you only know what's a quality car years down the line. First impression matters though.
  - lostlogin 5mo ago
    I’d be stoked if a washing machine lasted a decade.
    - bzzzt 5mo ago
      I'd be disappointed if it didn't. My Bosch is running for about 13 years right now and just as well as when I bought it. Maybe it helps I'm in the EU and there's a law stating you have right of compensation if it dies within a decade...
    - mesrik 5mo ago
      How so, not last a decade? I had AEG Lavamat 1055 about 35 years (from 1982), worked well without hitch. It was quite small, top loading model etc. Fast spin-dry w/ variomatic (shaking also while spinning). Laundry out of it was quite dry already. Then 2017 building plumbing had to be redone and gave reason to remake bathroom completely and replacing old equipment. I would have bought Miele model but it didn't fit reserved place and I ended up buying Electrolux instead. That's now month short of 9 years and I have no reason to believe it will not work well at least another 10 years to come. regardless advertised 10 years warranty. This current one has more electronic parts, but now searching by its model found only fault codes all seem to be user errors, overfilling, water hose not open, draining filter clogged etc. All non issues whoever bothers knowing how to maintain and operate that thing over years. No complaints about issues with electronics problems. These were first used by a couple and later single (me) needs which are usually once a week plus twice a month washing 4-5 uses single day. Which becomes bit over 100 washing in year. That's just 1000 washings in 10 years and 3500 in 35 years. For a family washing every day once it would be 3563 uses in 10 years. If washing machine isn't badly kept against instructions and it isn't cheapest knock off plastic rubish, why would be a surprise if it doesn't last at least that 10 years use washing family laundry. And last many decades with single or dink use?
quijoteuniv 5mo ago
Vertical integration matters. If BYD controls much of the chain from the mine to the ship, they’re not paying everyone else’s margin along the way. That can translate into more car for the money. I own a BYD Tang, so I’m biased, but the value for money has been hard to beat. Scale probably helps too. When you sell millions of cars using many of the same parts, availability is better and parts are more likely to stay affordable than on low-volume models with lots of redesigns.
- MagicMoonlight 5mo ago
  And also the simplicity of the products. You don't need to design a different engine for each car, you just vary the number of cells and change the motors. Your battery division can keep pumping out batteries, regardless of what models you make. If you design a new model, you can keep using the existing lines. It's perfect for mass production.
- vladvasiliu 5mo ago
  > Vertical integration matters. If BYD controls much of the chain from the mine to the ship, they’re not paying everyone else’s margin along the way. That can translate into more car for the money. This is interesting. Wasn't the idea in Europe (and maybe elsewhere, too, no idea) that outsourcing components would lead to economies of scale? After all, a Mercedes or BMW or VW seat is still roughly a seat? It's interesting to me that we seem to switch back and forth between the two models, each time saying the new approach is "better".
  - hermanzegerman 5mo ago
    VW, Mercedes and BMW also squeeze their suppliers very hard, and they operate with razor thin margins. So I agree and wouldn't say that doing everything in house is always going to be the cheaper way
    - avhception 5mo ago
      My family operated a business on exactly these razor thin margins. You always live on the razors edge. You're unable to invest into the future, unable to improve your processes, and god forbid there is even a minor disruption. I don't think it's sustainable. We've since faltered, as have our many of our competitors and suppliers.
epolanski 5mo ago
"chinese X bad" is really ignorant. One in 6 people on the planet lives in China, it's a gargantuan country that is the world leader in manufacturing. You're going to have a high variance of quality output for the mere fact that the overall output is massive. People often equate low-value Chinese manufacturing that focuses on low cost with their manufacturing quality across all fields.
- King-Aaron 5mo ago
  I feel that in the west we have been fed a version of China that doesn't necessarily reflect the true image of the country.
  - dumb1224 5mo ago
    I don't think it's anyone (lay person)'s fault. As a chinese person moved to European in the early 2000s for the longest time I wouldn't touch a chinese product (although I'm very proud of the progress made in terms of industrialisation). Things changed in 2012 when I bought a 'cheap-ish' Huawei phone, it was nothing of a flagship, no performance but it was really solid product. Very light and well built too. How ironic that was my first ever experience of buying a product exported to Europe.
  - pepperoni_pizza 5mo ago
    Does the true version have slave labor, reeducation camps for minorities, needing permission to travel, running protestors over with tanks, and gutter oil by any chance?
    - ahartmetz 5mo ago
      There are these things, but also that daily life does not feel very oppressive at all. Very different from Soviet Russia or the GDR.
      - avhception 5mo ago
        This could be mostly due to the fact that China has been on the rise, economically. So people mostly see the system working, and mostly in their favor. We'll see the real oppression once that changes.
alfiedotwtf 5mo ago
> all look good and don't fit the 'chinese car bad' narrative you always hear. “No wonder this circuit failed, it says made in Japan” “What do you mean doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan”
monegator 5mo ago
And they have really good designs (after all, they are taking inspiration from the most succesful european cars. I saw the station wagon the other day, it's amazing. the octavia EV as it should be.) The problem is always going to be: what's going to happen in 10 years, or whatever, after warranty expires? The problem with vertical integration is for the customer, and it's repairs: traditional manufacturing is more expensive because you have a constellation of companies manufacturing pars with official and unofficial second sources. While this increases the overall cost of the vehichle, it decreases the final price of every component because the customer (independent mechanic) can choose to use a different source. The market working as intended. BYD is currently the only EV i would consider, because it's the best value and the engineering quality is indeed high, but because i want to own, not rent, i'm preoccupied of what's going to happen in X years. Yes, it's the same fear we had three-four decades ago when toyota/suzuki/kia entered the european market, that bet paid off but also because cost of repairs went down over time as they were also traditional manufacturers. (Yet for some exotic components you still must go to the OEM, and pay 2-3 times the equivalent sensor/component for an european car.) However, with vertical integration you are always at mercy of the manufacturer. Better engineering, yes. Better integration, better efficiency, but you will suffer for repairs if you can't have second sources. Think apple. (and tesla. but tesla is shit quality) Or john deere.
- pjc50 5mo ago
  I think we're going to have to accept that the EV market and technology is moving fast enough that cars behave a lot more like smartphones, or buying a computer in the 90s: one that's ten years old is going to look ridiculously dated even if it's still working fine. It's not unreasonable to estimate than in 10 years the average range will be 50% more or even double current range. I've got a leased one on order as a result. Let someone else eat the depreciation.
  - monegator 5mo ago
    my car is already 12 years old, but has at least 5 more under its belly. Has long paid for itself. It would cost me considerably more to keep changing it with something i don't own and as a result always be unconfortable with (and also keep paying until the end of time). But that's kind of beside the point: ex-lease are also being sold somewhere, nobody wants to lease an old car and nobody in their right mind will destroy a perfectly good car just because it's too old to be leased, so i think my point still stands.
cucumber3732842 5mo ago
>I have to say I'm super impressed with how heavy duty everything is. But do you actually have a frame of reference though? It's really easy to make stuff look good and then have it suck because someone in some other department nerfed it. I'm not saying they're bad but HN is not a community I trust to make such assessments.
- fragmede 5mo ago
  Putting a slick plastic cover over the engine so it doesn't look grimy is easy. How do you fake it so it looks good to a CT scanner though?
esskay 5mo ago
BYD are genuinely decent cars. And they've skyrocketed in popularity across parts of the world. In the UK the major car dealers are franchises, and you tend to see for example a Ford garage next to a Toyota garage, and they are operated by the same company. Most of these places have closed one of the branded ones and turned it into a BYD franchise dealership. Theres so many of them across the country now. I'd take a BYD over something like a Tesla thats for sure - far better cars, it's not even a fair comparison anymore. I dare say they'll struggle a little more in the US with the whole "China bad" propaganda engrained into society, which is likely why BYD have gone for the agressive expansion in Europe instead.
m3kw9 5mo ago
You cannot just eye ball a part and say is "high quality"
_DeadFred_ 5mo ago
It will be interesting to see if they can overcome the horrible resale value. The market seems to think these are disposable one owner only vehicles.

yuye 5mo ago

>The control arms, subframes, etc all look good and don't fit the 'chinese car bad' narrative you always hear. While I think the "chinese quality bad" narrative still applies to many Chinese brands, this isn't as universal as it was in the past. I think my eyes were first opened when I bought myself a Huawei phone(before the Google ban). My first few smartphones had been Samsung, I've always felt the term "planned obsolence" was the best way to describe these phones: After just a year, the phone felt considerably slower, and after two it was almost unusable. Huawei flagship phones were similar in price to Samsung, but I felt they lasted way longer.

HerbManic 5mo ago
I have had a fairly good run with a lot of these Chinese phones. Huawei when we could still get them was great. Xiaomi is great build quality but they are rotting out their OS with too much bloat and up sell. Oppo has been brilliant in that they are built well, cheap and allow you strip out anything you don't want.
- yuye 5mo ago
  I had one of the last available Huawei phones, the P30 Pro, for 3 years. The only reason I had to get a new phone is because it got stolen. >Xiaomi is great build quality but they are rotting out their OS with too much bloat and up sell. I've tried Xiaomi phones in their stores a few times. I feel like they're trying to copy the look and feel of iOS in a way, and I generally don't like the iOS UX.
King-Aaron 5mo ago
Oh man I miss my Huawei phones. I had an Oppo at one stage too. As an aside the best phone I ever had was a HTC One X, another brand that I sorely miss.
beAbU 5mo ago
Pre google ban huawei phones were incredible. 2-day batteries, great screens, fantastic cameras and an awesome price. I had a Samsung after my last huawei and it felt like a solid downgrade, even though the samsung was way more expensive. FYI, if you are looking for a post google huawei, check out honor phones.
dzhiurgis 5mo ago
MG ZS EV and BYD Atto 3 have a lot of issues in NZ/AU, so it's not without a merit. I'm sure they improved with latest models tho.
handle584 5mo ago
That's exactly how Chinese android market works, every phone/pad is No.1 upon release and within a few week's PR campaign. After a couple months a new one is released with another No.1 bla-bla, while the old one goes on life-support. Also have to mention their ads, built into the system, when every app opens, when you switch back, f*king everywhere. The funny thing is if you switch language to English or use it overseas, some of the ads will go away, ironic.

dakolli 5mo ago

I'd rather own Chinese everything over American. Everything America makes is slop and corners are cut for profits so the owners of companies can own their third home and maybe a yacht. The truth is Chinese engineering quality exceeds the West in almost every domain at this point. I'd move there given the opportunity, the business owners of America are willing to poison and put the lives of their fellow citizens at risk for literal pieces of paper. I'm ashamed to be American.

HerbManic 5mo ago
I agree with the quality of some of the stuff coming out of China but when it comes to poisons and risking the lives of citizens, I have some bad news for you. That is how they undercut so heavily by foregoing those standards.
- emodendroket 5mo ago
  China has moved beyond being a "value" manufacturer and they've cleaned up a lot.
- don_esteban 5mo ago
  In China, they hang those that are responsible. In US, they get slap on their hand.
  - King-Aaron 5mo ago
    Or they get cabinet positions.
  - HerbManic 5mo ago
    Ha, yeah that is a fair point.
davidwritesbugs 5mo ago
Not saying you are wrong about many US business owners but having travelled in China I can tell you that Chinese companies have no qualms about poisoning their neighbours for enhanced profits - my guide there said it was what he hated about his country. Money drives ethics pretty much everywhere I reckon.

gofastercloud 5mo ago

In the last few years Chinese manufacturing has reached a very high-level. The reason most people still believe that Chinese-made stuff is poor quality is because they will do what they are told and they are usually told “make this as cheap as possible” by whoever is paying the bills. While I reckon some other countries still have specialist manufacturing in key areas that surpasses China, most “common” parts can be made in China to a standard that meets or exceeds Western countries, if you’re willing to pay for it.

acdha 5mo ago
> The reason most people still believe that Chinese-made stuff is poor quality is because they will do what they are told and they are usually told “make this as cheap as possible” by whoever is paying the bills. I’m reminded of all the dismissals people made about the skill levels of Indian software developers when the explanation was that the more skilled ones knew they could do better than the MBAs were offering to make the savings sound even more impressive.
- p_l 5mo ago
  Unfortunately, the manager pushing the outsourcing pockets the money, outsourcing company pockets the money, and the local and indian teams get to be abused and latter gets extra blame for things outside their control. I would say the problem is heavily structural and linked to few companies that very much pursue lowest possible effort, harming both employee and customer. We had a company that infamously pursued a somewhat similar (just with not as much leverage over employees) strategy in Poland - a common refrain was how other companies would get people jumping jobs from them who gave variants of "I needed some spending money while finishing my degree, escaped as soon as I could" story. Unfortunately it seems a bit harder to do when some places apparently hire with only category appearing to be "according to census they speak english", then put them on project with minimal training and zero time or space to acquire more training.
  - acdha 5mo ago
    Yes - I remember one time hearing someone from a big consulting company make the argument that even the top Indian graduates would work for peanuts (even by local standards) and asking them how likely it was that they’d be that smart but unable to determine their market value. This was unsurprising after my entire life hearing people complain about declining quality and imported junk while always picking the cheapest item on the shelf at the store, even when they had plenty of money for a better quality option. There’s just a certain mindset which can’t look past the lowest possible price.

emodendroket 5mo ago

People talking about Chinese manufacturing all being junk are completely stuck in the past.

UncleOxidant 5mo ago
My grandfather in the 1970s used to complain about crappy Japanese tools. By the 1980s they were world-class. Same is happening with Chinese manufacturing.
- krelian 5mo ago
  There is a joke just about that in Back to the Future (1985)!
  - StilesCrisis 5mo ago
    In BttF2, it is taken to the logical extreme and Marty's boss is Mister Fujitsu-san: https://youtu.be/UlEFqR4SaVA https://youtu.be/UlEFqR4SaVA
    - WorldMaker 5mo ago
      It also recurs in BTTF3 with Marty and 1950's Doc needing to replace a single Japanese-made IC with a large vacuum tube assembly.
- Theodores 5mo ago
  My great-grandfather used to complain about crappy German tools. My great-great-grandfather used to complain about crappy Scottish tools. He was English. I am not sure you can buy as much as a paperclip made in England now. Has to be said that nobody on this side of the pond ever complained about the quality of American Snap On tools though, just so long as the boss was paying for them.
  - pjc50 5mo ago
    Some of the old Sheffield toolmakers are still going: https://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/ https://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/ The UK has mostly moved up the value chain. We make satellites and turbines now.

Toutouxc 5mo ago

I have a Chinese EV too, an MG4 built by SAIC. It’s a really cheap car, significantly cheaper than its non-Chinese counterparts like the VW ID.3 or (roughly) a Hyundai Kona. The factory rust protection was maybe a bit on the lighter side, but everything else on it looks completely normal. The drivetrain is simple (no heat exchange mechanism between battery coolant and motor coolant, a slightly whiny motor), but also genuinely competent and modern for a 2022 design (a mature skateboard RWD platform with a thin CTP battery with large cells and generous cell/coolant heat exchange). There are no obvious wtf solutions, nothing that would look too thin or too flimsy. The infotainment and the SW of the car does have the occasional funny moments, but all that is happening on what looks and feels like a solid piece of hardware.

hvb2 5mo ago
Cars only show if they're well made after like a decade? These are not washing machines or something. Sadly that's also why it's hard to buy a new car, you only know what's a quality car years down the line. First impression matters though.
- lostlogin 5mo ago
  I’d be stoked if a washing machine lasted a decade.
  - bzzzt 5mo ago
    I'd be disappointed if it didn't. My Bosch is running for about 13 years right now and just as well as when I bought it. Maybe it helps I'm in the EU and there's a law stating you have right of compensation if it dies within a decade...
  - mesrik 5mo ago
    How so, not last a decade? I had AEG Lavamat 1055 about 35 years (from 1982), worked well without hitch. It was quite small, top loading model etc. Fast spin-dry w/ variomatic (shaking also while spinning). Laundry out of it was quite dry already. Then 2017 building plumbing had to be redone and gave reason to remake bathroom completely and replacing old equipment. I would have bought Miele model but it didn't fit reserved place and I ended up buying Electrolux instead. That's now month short of 9 years and I have no reason to believe it will not work well at least another 10 years to come. regardless advertised 10 years warranty. This current one has more electronic parts, but now searching by its model found only fault codes all seem to be user errors, overfilling, water hose not open, draining filter clogged etc. All non issues whoever bothers knowing how to maintain and operate that thing over years. No complaints about issues with electronics problems. These were first used by a couple and later single (me) needs which are usually once a week plus twice a month washing 4-5 uses single day. Which becomes bit over 100 washing in year. That's just 1000 washings in 10 years and 3500 in 35 years. For a family washing every day once it would be 3563 uses in 10 years. If washing machine isn't badly kept against instructions and it isn't cheapest knock off plastic rubish, why would be a surprise if it doesn't last at least that 10 years use washing family laundry. And last many decades with single or dink use?

quijoteuniv 5mo ago

Vertical integration matters. If BYD controls much of the chain from the mine to the ship, they’re not paying everyone else’s margin along the way. That can translate into more car for the money. I own a BYD Tang, so I’m biased, but the value for money has been hard to beat. Scale probably helps too. When you sell millions of cars using many of the same parts, availability is better and parts are more likely to stay affordable than on low-volume models with lots of redesigns.

MagicMoonlight 5mo ago
And also the simplicity of the products. You don't need to design a different engine for each car, you just vary the number of cells and change the motors. Your battery division can keep pumping out batteries, regardless of what models you make. If you design a new model, you can keep using the existing lines. It's perfect for mass production.
vladvasiliu 5mo ago
> Vertical integration matters. If BYD controls much of the chain from the mine to the ship, they’re not paying everyone else’s margin along the way. That can translate into more car for the money. This is interesting. Wasn't the idea in Europe (and maybe elsewhere, too, no idea) that outsourcing components would lead to economies of scale? After all, a Mercedes or BMW or VW seat is still roughly a seat? It's interesting to me that we seem to switch back and forth between the two models, each time saying the new approach is "better".
- hermanzegerman 5mo ago
  VW, Mercedes and BMW also squeeze their suppliers very hard, and they operate with razor thin margins. So I agree and wouldn't say that doing everything in house is always going to be the cheaper way
  - avhception 5mo ago
    My family operated a business on exactly these razor thin margins. You always live on the razors edge. You're unable to invest into the future, unable to improve your processes, and god forbid there is even a minor disruption. I don't think it's sustainable. We've since faltered, as have our many of our competitors and suppliers.

epolanski 5mo ago

"chinese X bad" is really ignorant. One in 6 people on the planet lives in China, it's a gargantuan country that is the world leader in manufacturing. You're going to have a high variance of quality output for the mere fact that the overall output is massive. People often equate low-value Chinese manufacturing that focuses on low cost with their manufacturing quality across all fields.

King-Aaron 5mo ago
I feel that in the west we have been fed a version of China that doesn't necessarily reflect the true image of the country.
- dumb1224 5mo ago
  I don't think it's anyone (lay person)'s fault. As a chinese person moved to European in the early 2000s for the longest time I wouldn't touch a chinese product (although I'm very proud of the progress made in terms of industrialisation). Things changed in 2012 when I bought a 'cheap-ish' Huawei phone, it was nothing of a flagship, no performance but it was really solid product. Very light and well built too. How ironic that was my first ever experience of buying a product exported to Europe.
- pepperoni_pizza 5mo ago
  Does the true version have slave labor, reeducation camps for minorities, needing permission to travel, running protestors over with tanks, and gutter oil by any chance?
  - ahartmetz 5mo ago
    There are these things, but also that daily life does not feel very oppressive at all. Very different from Soviet Russia or the GDR.
    - avhception 5mo ago
      This could be mostly due to the fact that China has been on the rise, economically. So people mostly see the system working, and mostly in their favor. We'll see the real oppression once that changes.

alfiedotwtf 5mo ago

> all look good and don't fit the 'chinese car bad' narrative you always hear. “No wonder this circuit failed, it says made in Japan” “What do you mean doc, all the best stuff is made in Japan”

monegator 5mo ago

And they have really good designs (after all, they are taking inspiration from the most succesful european cars. I saw the station wagon the other day, it's amazing. the octavia EV as it should be.) The problem is always going to be: what's going to happen in 10 years, or whatever, after warranty expires? The problem with vertical integration is for the customer, and it's repairs: traditional manufacturing is more expensive because you have a constellation of companies manufacturing pars with official and unofficial second sources. While this increases the overall cost of the vehichle, it decreases the final price of every component because the customer (independent mechanic) can choose to use a different source. The market working as intended. BYD is currently the only EV i would consider, because it's the best value and the engineering quality is indeed high, but because i want to own, not rent, i'm preoccupied of what's going to happen in X years. Yes, it's the same fear we had three-four decades ago when toyota/suzuki/kia entered the european market, that bet paid off but also because cost of repairs went down over time as they were also traditional manufacturers. (Yet for some exotic components you still must go to the OEM, and pay 2-3 times the equivalent sensor/component for an european car.) However, with vertical integration you are always at mercy of the manufacturer. Better engineering, yes. Better integration, better efficiency, but you will suffer for repairs if you can't have second sources. Think apple. (and tesla. but tesla is shit quality) Or john deere.

pjc50 5mo ago
I think we're going to have to accept that the EV market and technology is moving fast enough that cars behave a lot more like smartphones, or buying a computer in the 90s: one that's ten years old is going to look ridiculously dated even if it's still working fine. It's not unreasonable to estimate than in 10 years the average range will be 50% more or even double current range. I've got a leased one on order as a result. Let someone else eat the depreciation.
- monegator 5mo ago
  my car is already 12 years old, but has at least 5 more under its belly. Has long paid for itself. It would cost me considerably more to keep changing it with something i don't own and as a result always be unconfortable with (and also keep paying until the end of time). But that's kind of beside the point: ex-lease are also being sold somewhere, nobody wants to lease an old car and nobody in their right mind will destroy a perfectly good car just because it's too old to be leased, so i think my point still stands.

cucumber3732842 5mo ago

>I have to say I'm super impressed with how heavy duty everything is. But do you actually have a frame of reference though? It's really easy to make stuff look good and then have it suck because someone in some other department nerfed it. I'm not saying they're bad but HN is not a community I trust to make such assessments.

fragmede 5mo ago
Putting a slick plastic cover over the engine so it doesn't look grimy is easy. How do you fake it so it looks good to a CT scanner though?

esskay 5mo ago

BYD are genuinely decent cars. And they've skyrocketed in popularity across parts of the world. In the UK the major car dealers are franchises, and you tend to see for example a Ford garage next to a Toyota garage, and they are operated by the same company. Most of these places have closed one of the branded ones and turned it into a BYD franchise dealership. Theres so many of them across the country now. I'd take a BYD over something like a Tesla thats for sure - far better cars, it's not even a fair comparison anymore. I dare say they'll struggle a little more in the US with the whole "China bad" propaganda engrained into society, which is likely why BYD have gone for the agressive expansion in Europe instead.

m3kw9 5mo ago

You cannot just eye ball a part and say is "high quality"

_DeadFred_ 5mo ago

It will be interesting to see if they can overcome the horrible resale value. The market seems to think these are disposable one owner only vehicles.