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"When a person shares something like a message with a friend, two copies of that information are created—one in the person's sent messages box and the other in

by jonmc12 18y ago

"When a person shares something like a message with a friend, two copies of that information are created—one in the person's sent messages box and the other in their friend's inbox. Even if the person deactivates their account, their friend still has a copy of that message." Ok, but that does not mean that Facebook actually has to retain ownership of your information if you leave the site, right? The friend you sent this message to could have ownership of this piece of information - if Facebook wanted to structure it this way. That is actually how email works. It seems like a pretty weakly structured argument. Maybe the most meaningful and straightforward part of the article: "we're going to make some missteps"

scotth 18y ago
Furthermore, this kind of statement is a bit vague. What other ways is information duplicated in a way that is reasonable to Facebook? The example they provide would be seen as acceptable to most, but what if general site operations require duplication and retention that is not?
ojbyrne 18y ago
So I guess technically they should have some kind of a reference count. Once you and all your friends with which you shared a specific image or message or whatever leaves, they should let all rights lapse. That would be the right way to do it, at least.
- tolmasky 18y ago
  I think a mark and sweep algorithm on the information would be a better strategy
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  So I guess technically they should have... a reference count. Okay, wise guys: Show me the algorithm that finds the snippet of ojbyrne's writing that I've just copied, above, and deletes it when ojbyrne deletes the original message. ;) Now show me the version which correctly identifies my quote as a pretty obvious case of fair use, and therefore allows me to keep the quote even when the original is deleted. No hacker would expect you to be able to do such a thing reliably. But the juries in copyright lawsuits are not composed of hackers.
  - tolmasky 18y ago
    git could do it ;)
mechanical_fish 18y ago
The friend you sent this message to could have ownership of this piece of information - if Facebook wanted to structure it this way. That is actually how email works. This is untrue. An email written by you is your copyrighted work, from the moment you type it. Just because it's in my inbox doesn't mean you've relinquished your copyright. Technically, if I republish your email to me, you can sue me. [1] The other day someone was polite enough to ask for permission to republish one of my comments here on HN on their blog. That surprised me for a second, but it shouldn't have. They were doing the correct, legal thing -- my comment was (and is) copyrighted by me; unless they were reproducing it for a fair use -- as I just did, when I quoted your post for the purpose of commenting on it -- they needed my permission to reuse it. Now imagine how useful Facebook would be if every user had to seek a copyright release from every other user anytime they forwarded a message, or cropped a fellow user's photo, or reposted something, lest Facebook later be sued for contributory or vicarious infringement. [2] That's why Facebook has now decided to just have users agree to a waiver in advance. --- [1] Not that you would necessarily win such a lawsuit. There are such things as "implied licenses": If you send email to a public mailing list there's an implication that you mean for it to be public: http://www.piercelaw.edu/thomasfield/ipbasics/copyright-on-the-internet.php http://www.piercelaw.edu/thomasfield/ipbasics/copyright-on-t... There are also many fair uses. But, especially if I use your writing for some sort of commercial purpose -- as Facebook does, constantly -- you can take me to court and hassle me, because the copyright is still yours. As the Creative Commons website will tell you at great length, under current US copyright law it's actually really hard to throw away the inherent copyright that you hold in your own work, even if you want to throw it away. [2] http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise14.html http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise14.html
- anewaccountname 18y ago
  So when I click reply to an email, and preserves your entire text at the bottom of my reply, I'm guilty of copyright infringement? How about when I forward the school newsletter to the person the school meant to send it to?
  - mechanical_fish 18y ago

by jonmc12 18y ago

scotth 18y ago

Furthermore, this kind of statement is a bit vague. What other ways is information duplicated in a way that is reasonable to Facebook? The example they provide would be seen as acceptable to most, but what if general site operations require duplication and retention that is not?

ojbyrne 18y ago

So I guess technically they should have some kind of a reference count. Once you and all your friends with which you shared a specific image or message or whatever leaves, they should let all rights lapse. That would be the right way to do it, at least.

tolmasky 18y ago
I think a mark and sweep algorithm on the information would be a better strategy
mechanical_fish 18y ago
So I guess technically they should have... a reference count. Okay, wise guys: Show me the algorithm that finds the snippet of ojbyrne's writing that I've just copied, above, and deletes it when ojbyrne deletes the original message. ;) Now show me the version which correctly identifies my quote as a pretty obvious case of fair use, and therefore allows me to keep the quote even when the original is deleted. No hacker would expect you to be able to do such a thing reliably. But the juries in copyright lawsuits are not composed of hackers.
- tolmasky 18y ago
  git could do it ;)

mechanical_fish 18y ago

The friend you sent this message to could have ownership of this piece of information - if Facebook wanted to structure it this way. That is actually how email works. This is untrue. An email written by you is your copyrighted work, from the moment you type it. Just because it's in my inbox doesn't mean you've relinquished your copyright. Technically, if I republish your email to me, you can sue me. [1] The other day someone was polite enough to ask for permission to republish one of my comments here on HN on their blog. That surprised me for a second, but it shouldn't have. They were doing the correct, legal thing -- my comment was (and is) copyrighted by me; unless they were reproducing it for a fair use -- as I just did, when I quoted your post for the purpose of commenting on it -- they needed my permission to reuse it. Now imagine how useful Facebook would be if every user had to seek a copyright release from every other user anytime they forwarded a message, or cropped a fellow user's photo, or reposted something, lest Facebook later be sued for contributory or vicarious infringement. [2] That's why Facebook has now decided to just have users agree to a waiver in advance. --- [1] Not that you would necessarily win such a lawsuit. There are such things as "implied licenses": If you send email to a public mailing list there's an implication that you mean for it to be public: http://www.piercelaw.edu/thomasfield/ipbasics/copyright-on-the-internet.php http://www.piercelaw.edu/thomasfield/ipbasics/copyright-on-t... There are also many fair uses. But, especially if I use your writing for some sort of commercial purpose -- as Facebook does, constantly -- you can take me to court and hassle me, because the copyright is still yours. As the Creative Commons website will tell you at great length, under current US copyright law it's actually really hard to throw away the inherent copyright that you hold in your own work, even if you want to throw it away. [2] http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise14.html http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise14.html

anewaccountname 18y ago
So when I click reply to an email, and preserves your entire text at the bottom of my reply, I'm guilty of copyright infringement? How about when I forward the school newsletter to the person the school meant to send it to?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago