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Why would it be less repairable? Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Mechanical parts are more integrated, but they so simple that the

by cyberax 5mo ago

Why would it be less repairable? Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Mechanical parts are more integrated, but they so simple that they can last for decades. And once they give out, you can just replace the whole unit for maybe $2000.

joe_mamba 5mo ago
>Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Only if someone makes and sells those power electronics to you along with the appropriate DRM tools required for calibration and pairing with the other electronics of the car. Otherwise you're shit outta luck. >Mechanical parts are more integrated, but they so simple that they can last for decades. Simple != decades of reliability, when the design and manufacturing quality are piss poor in the race to the bottom for cost cutting and shareholder returns. Timing chains were also supposed to last a lifetime but plenty have been recalled due to know timing chain issues from manufacturing quality. VW and Kia/Hyundai EVs were found to use custom dimensions motor bearings that can't be bought on the open market from anywhere, so only the OEM and their dealers can get them via their supply chain.
- cyberax 5mo ago
  There is nothing terribly complicated there. It's just an AC motor ("brushless DC") with a classic 3-phase inverter and a resolver. There are plenty of companies that make controllers for this kind of setup. Granted, they are typically not powerful enough for SOTA drivetrains, but it's a question of time. Power electronics will need to fit into the footprint of the e-axle. Or maybe you'll need to manufacture a new housing. Both are easily doable for small companies. > VW and Kia/Hyundai EVs were found to use custom dimensions motor bearings that can't be bought on the open market from anywhere, so only the OEM and their dealers can get them via their supply chain. Again, an independent manufacturer can easily make them.
  - joe_mamba 5mo ago
    >Both are easily doable for small companies. As cheap as the mass produced ones with the economies of scale? I seriously doubt it. You're talking about a car ECU. Go see how much ECUs cost that don't deal with power electronics. >Again, an independent manufacturer can easily make them. Yeah but again, for how much? You can make anything if money is no option. But if cost is too high people will just scrap the car and buy a new one.
    - cyberax 5mo ago
      > As cheap as the mass produced ones with the economies of scale? Of course not. This has _never_ been the case. You get spare parts from manufacturers initially, usually at a higher price (buying new bikes and parting them has been a thing for decades). When manufacturers stop producing spare parts, you can cannibalize existing cars that are taken off the road for other reasons (crashes, severe cosmetic damage, etc.). This is enough to last you at least 2 decades. And after that time, maintaining a car makes sense only for sentimental reasons. If there's demand, there'll be supply. There are companies that are _still_ making new parts for Trabants! > You're talking about a car ECU. Go see how much ECUs cost that don't deal with power electronics. You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? ECUs on EVs do NOT deal with high voltage directly. They are just regular computers that run off 12V and output control signals over CAN lines, just like on regular gas cars. The drivetrain on EVs is now integrated, with the power inverter sitting next to the motor to minimize transmission losses. It usually exposes a simple CAN-based control interface with a bunch of diagnostic data and YUGE high-voltage power leads. As a result, you can buy EV conversion kits that reuse Tesla motors and power electronics. E.g.: https://kaizenmotoring.com/complete-tesla-swap-guide/ https://kaizenmotoring.com/complete-tesla-swap-guide/ If anything, EVs will make it easier to repair stuff once the technology slows down a bit.
      - joe_mamba 5mo ago
        >It usually exposes a simple CAN-based control interface And what do you do whan that is locked out via DRM?
        5mo ago
numpad0 5mo ago
EU added "cybersecurity" requirements in response to Comma.ai that means that a lot of ECUs going forward use signed messages AND often crypto key pairing against an onboard security auth box. The pairing process often require something like a scuffed up manufacturer rental Panasonic Toughbook with weird half baked apps and passwords. The car would refuse to drive or whatever if the owner wouldn't play along with that game.
lelanthran 5mo ago
> Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Depends. These parts are custom designed, physically, and difficult to find off-the-shelf replacements for. The heater fan-controller on my wife's SUV died. This is simply a current-limiting device: receives (I assume) CAN signals from the dashboard rotary encoder and determines what current to send the fan. While I could have dragged my 'scope to the car, determine what signals it's getting from the dash system (all integrated, btw), it was easier to find one in China and wait six weeks. (I may have chosen the first option if this happened in the winter, but in summer the heater is never used anyway).

by cyberax 5mo ago

joe_mamba 5mo ago

>Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Only if someone makes and sells those power electronics to you along with the appropriate DRM tools required for calibration and pairing with the other electronics of the car. Otherwise you're shit outta luck. >Mechanical parts are more integrated, but they so simple that they can last for decades. Simple != decades of reliability, when the design and manufacturing quality are piss poor in the race to the bottom for cost cutting and shareholder returns. Timing chains were also supposed to last a lifetime but plenty have been recalled due to know timing chain issues from manufacturing quality. VW and Kia/Hyundai EVs were found to use custom dimensions motor bearings that can't be bought on the open market from anywhere, so only the OEM and their dealers can get them via their supply chain.

cyberax 5mo ago
There is nothing terribly complicated there. It's just an AC motor ("brushless DC") with a classic 3-phase inverter and a resolver. There are plenty of companies that make controllers for this kind of setup. Granted, they are typically not powerful enough for SOTA drivetrains, but it's a question of time. Power electronics will need to fit into the footprint of the e-axle. Or maybe you'll need to manufacture a new housing. Both are easily doable for small companies. > VW and Kia/Hyundai EVs were found to use custom dimensions motor bearings that can't be bought on the open market from anywhere, so only the OEM and their dealers can get them via their supply chain. Again, an independent manufacturer can easily make them.
- joe_mamba 5mo ago
  >Both are easily doable for small companies. As cheap as the mass produced ones with the economies of scale? I seriously doubt it. You're talking about a car ECU. Go see how much ECUs cost that don't deal with power electronics. >Again, an independent manufacturer can easily make them. Yeah but again, for how much? You can make anything if money is no option. But if cost is too high people will just scrap the car and buy a new one.
  - cyberax 5mo ago
    > As cheap as the mass produced ones with the economies of scale? Of course not. This has _never_ been the case. You get spare parts from manufacturers initially, usually at a higher price (buying new bikes and parting them has been a thing for decades). When manufacturers stop producing spare parts, you can cannibalize existing cars that are taken off the road for other reasons (crashes, severe cosmetic damage, etc.). This is enough to last you at least 2 decades. And after that time, maintaining a car makes sense only for sentimental reasons. If there's demand, there'll be supply. There are companies that are _still_ making new parts for Trabants! > You're talking about a car ECU. Go see how much ECUs cost that don't deal with power electronics. You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? ECUs on EVs do NOT deal with high voltage directly. They are just regular computers that run off 12V and output control signals over CAN lines, just like on regular gas cars. The drivetrain on EVs is now integrated, with the power inverter sitting next to the motor to minimize transmission losses. It usually exposes a simple CAN-based control interface with a bunch of diagnostic data and YUGE high-voltage power leads. As a result, you can buy EV conversion kits that reuse Tesla motors and power electronics. E.g.: https://kaizenmotoring.com/complete-tesla-swap-guide/ https://kaizenmotoring.com/complete-tesla-swap-guide/ If anything, EVs will make it easier to repair stuff once the technology slows down a bit.
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      >It usually exposes a simple CAN-based control interface And what do you do whan that is locked out via DRM?
      - 5mo ago

numpad0 5mo ago

EU added "cybersecurity" requirements in response to Comma.ai that means that a lot of ECUs going forward use signed messages AND often crypto key pairing against an onboard security auth box. The pairing process often require something like a scuffed up manufacturer rental Panasonic Toughbook with weird half baked apps and passwords. The car would refuse to drive or whatever if the owner wouldn't play along with that game.

lelanthran 5mo ago

> Power electronics are still modular and are easily swappable. Depends. These parts are custom designed, physically, and difficult to find off-the-shelf replacements for. The heater fan-controller on my wife's SUV died. This is simply a current-limiting device: receives (I assume) CAN signals from the dashboard rotary encoder and determines what current to send the fan. While I could have dragged my 'scope to the car, determine what signals it's getting from the dash system (all integrated, btw), it was easier to find one in China and wait six weeks. (I may have chosen the first option if this happened in the winter, but in summer the heater is never used anyway).