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That is kinda what is going on in China.

by ekianjo 5mo ago

lenerdenator 5mo ago
And that's what the Larry Ellisons of the world want. One of the bigger lies ever told is that free-market economies help democratize nations. They don't. If they did, we would have made massive investments in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Marxist-Leninist governments there. Instead we decided to invest in China and, later, Vietnam, among others. These are two very non-democratic nations. Why did we do that, especially after the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Because it better fit the needs of capital. The last thing they wanted was to set up shop in a bunch of countries where the people had organized against authoritarian regimes for change. If they can get rid of the likes of Ceaușescu and Honecker despite their brutality, they could certainly do things like strike for better working conditions and a greater share of their employers' earnings. Ellison's just another in a long line of guys with far too much money and far too little empathy. If you get out-of-line in a way that financially or politically inconveniences him, he wants you dealt with as severely as possible. China does that, and now he wants that in the US and other Western countries.
- vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
  “ far too much money and far too little empathy” There is the old video about the mistake of anthropomorphizing Ellison. You don’t get angry at a lawn mower either when you stick your hand into it.
  - lenerdenator 5mo ago
    > mistake of anthropomorphizing Ellison That's the problem: we take that story and use it as an excuse to act like he's not a human. "Oh, ol' Larry, he's just a lawnmower". No, he's a person, one who doesn't get enough in the way of negative consequences for the harm he brings to society. My former employer was bought out by Oracle. I didn't stick my hand in the lawn mower, the lawn mower drove over my hand.
- dismalaf 5mo ago
  > They don't. If they did, we would have made massive investments in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Marxist-Leninist governments there. Ummm, what? Have you been to Eastern Europe lately (minus Ukraine, Belarus and Russia)? They're basically the west, except cleaner and less crime-ridden.
  - lenerdenator 5mo ago
    That's the wrong takeaway from the post, and I think you know it. Imagine what those countries would be like if they'd received the investment that the Chinese did 35 years ago.
    - dismalaf 5mo ago
      Those countries are all significantly richer per capita than China. Especially somewhere like Czechia, which has already passed several Western European countries in wealth. How much richer do you think Czechia and Poland would be if they received more FDI in the 90's versus the 00's? They received way higher investment per person than China did as well. Also, China has some natural advantages, like being able to employ a ton of ultra cheap labour to engage in nation building projects. While the appearance of China is that of a rich country, they remain significantly poorer per capita than Europe.
      - lenerdenator 4mo ago
        > How much richer do you think Czechia and Poland would be if they received more FDI in the 90's versus the 00's? If capital wasn't authoritarian, we would have found out.
- hollerith 5mo ago
  According to GPT, Poland (my pick because its GDP per cap is about the average for the former Warsaw Pact) received about $10,000 per person in foreign direct investment in recent years whereas during the same period, China received only about $1,900 per person.
  - lenerdenator 5mo ago
    > in recent years How about 25-35 years ago when the wave of globalization truly hit?
    - hollerith 5mo ago
      You could look it up yourself. The figures I gave are the total current value of equities (stocks) held by foreign investors (divided by population). Since the value was zero in Poland in 1989 and very very low in China in 1989, GPT thought this would be a good way to estimate cumulative investment from then to now, but GPT also said there are figures available for investment inflows per year going back to 1989 that it could add up if I asked, but it guessed that such a calculation would only show investment into Poland in an even more comparatively favorable light. https://chatgpt.com/share/6a1f4622-aea4-83e8-838a-0c3ac69b26db https://chatgpt.com/share/6a1f4622-aea4-83e8-838a-0c3ac69b26...
      - jrflowers 5mo ago
        >GPT thought No it didn’t
colordrops 5mo ago
Except China has a well defined culture and millenia of experience with this and has learned how to have an autocratic society that still somewhat serves its people (until it doesn't). The US has been captured by a foreign power that has no interest in the welfare of the people so the expectation is that an autocratic society would be much worse in the US.
- vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
  They don’t have millennia of experience with a surveillance state. But so far people are accepting it because their economic situation is generally improving. And crime is low. It may change once they have reached the same level of prosperity as the West and growth slows.
  - 6stringmerc 5mo ago
    Uh, are you sure about that claim regarding surveillance over human history? Just because the technology has advanced does not entail the methods or concepts are novel. Quite the contrary in my view: the modern versions are natural evolutions of long traditions and customs. Having “rats” and “moles” reporting on behavior is, I mean, it predates written records of I’m not mistaken.
    - vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
      Today is a totally different scale. The German stasi needed a huge amount of people to handle all the incoming data and a lot of it fell through anyways l. Today you just throw a lot of compute at it and nothing can escape. Yes you always had people snitching on each other but it was inefficient and hard to centralize. Today is different.
- jr3592 5mo ago
  > The US has been captured by a foreign power that has no interest in the welfare of the people Huh?
toasty228 5mo ago
How is it relevant? "oh yeah we're developing something super fucked up but you know what the problem is? cHiNA", every single fucking time And I bet all of you clowns wouldn't even be able to name three living Chinese people. The greatest threat to the west right now, and especially the US, is the American government, not China

That is kinda what is going on in China.

by ekianjo 5mo ago

That is kinda what is going on in China.

And that's what the Larry Ellisons of the world want. One of the bigger lies ever told is that free-market economies help democratize nations. They don't. If they did, we would have made massive investments in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Marxist-Leninist governments there. Instead we decided to invest in China and, later, Vietnam, among others. These are two very non-democratic nations. Why did we do that, especially after the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Because it better fit the needs of capital. The last thing they wanted was to set up shop in a bunch of countries where the people had organized against authoritarian regimes for change. If they can get rid of the likes of Ceaușescu and Honecker despite their brutality, they could certainly do things like strike for better working conditions and a greater share of their employers' earnings. Ellison's just another in a long line of guys with far too much money and far too little empathy. If you get out-of-line in a way that financially or politically inconveniences him, he wants you dealt with as severely as possible. China does that, and now he wants that in the US and other Western countries.

vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
“ far too much money and far too little empathy” There is the old video about the mistake of anthropomorphizing Ellison. You don’t get angry at a lawn mower either when you stick your hand into it.
- lenerdenator 5mo ago
  > mistake of anthropomorphizing Ellison That's the problem: we take that story and use it as an excuse to act like he's not a human. "Oh, ol' Larry, he's just a lawnmower". No, he's a person, one who doesn't get enough in the way of negative consequences for the harm he brings to society. My former employer was bought out by Oracle. I didn't stick my hand in the lawn mower, the lawn mower drove over my hand.
dismalaf 5mo ago
> They don't. If they did, we would have made massive investments in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Marxist-Leninist governments there. Ummm, what? Have you been to Eastern Europe lately (minus Ukraine, Belarus and Russia)? They're basically the west, except cleaner and less crime-ridden.
- lenerdenator 5mo ago
  That's the wrong takeaway from the post, and I think you know it. Imagine what those countries would be like if they'd received the investment that the Chinese did 35 years ago.
  - dismalaf 5mo ago
    Those countries are all significantly richer per capita than China. Especially somewhere like Czechia, which has already passed several Western European countries in wealth. How much richer do you think Czechia and Poland would be if they received more FDI in the 90's versus the 00's? They received way higher investment per person than China did as well. Also, China has some natural advantages, like being able to employ a ton of ultra cheap labour to engage in nation building projects. While the appearance of China is that of a rich country, they remain significantly poorer per capita than Europe.
    - lenerdenator 4mo ago
      > How much richer do you think Czechia and Poland would be if they received more FDI in the 90's versus the 00's? If capital wasn't authoritarian, we would have found out.
hollerith 5mo ago
According to GPT, Poland (my pick because its GDP per cap is about the average for the former Warsaw Pact) received about $10,000 per person in foreign direct investment in recent years whereas during the same period, China received only about $1,900 per person.
- lenerdenator 5mo ago
  > in recent years How about 25-35 years ago when the wave of globalization truly hit?
  - hollerith 5mo ago
    You could look it up yourself. The figures I gave are the total current value of equities (stocks) held by foreign investors (divided by population). Since the value was zero in Poland in 1989 and very very low in China in 1989, GPT thought this would be a good way to estimate cumulative investment from then to now, but GPT also said there are figures available for investment inflows per year going back to 1989 that it could add up if I asked, but it guessed that such a calculation would only show investment into Poland in an even more comparatively favorable light. https://chatgpt.com/share/6a1f4622-aea4-83e8-838a-0c3ac69b26db https://chatgpt.com/share/6a1f4622-aea4-83e8-838a-0c3ac69b26...
    - jrflowers 5mo ago
      >GPT thought No it didn’t

colordrops 5mo ago

Except China has a well defined culture and millenia of experience with this and has learned how to have an autocratic society that still somewhat serves its people (until it doesn't). The US has been captured by a foreign power that has no interest in the welfare of the people so the expectation is that an autocratic society would be much worse in the US.

vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
They don’t have millennia of experience with a surveillance state. But so far people are accepting it because their economic situation is generally improving. And crime is low. It may change once they have reached the same level of prosperity as the West and growth slows.
- 6stringmerc 5mo ago
  Uh, are you sure about that claim regarding surveillance over human history? Just because the technology has advanced does not entail the methods or concepts are novel. Quite the contrary in my view: the modern versions are natural evolutions of long traditions and customs. Having “rats” and “moles” reporting on behavior is, I mean, it predates written records of I’m not mistaken.
  - vjvjvjvjghv 5mo ago
    Today is a totally different scale. The German stasi needed a huge amount of people to handle all the incoming data and a lot of it fell through anyways l. Today you just throw a lot of compute at it and nothing can escape. Yes you always had people snitching on each other but it was inefficient and hard to centralize. Today is different.
jr3592 5mo ago
> The US has been captured by a foreign power that has no interest in the welfare of the people Huh?

toasty228 5mo ago

How is it relevant? "oh yeah we're developing something super fucked up but you know what the problem is? cHiNA", every single fucking time And I bet all of you clowns wouldn't even be able to name three living Chinese people. The greatest threat to the west right now, and especially the US, is the American government, not China