6 ms·

I rode Elon Musk's Vegas Loop, the worst transit system on Earth

47 points by doener 5mo ago

joshstrange 5mo ago
I haven't kept up with the "Loop" concept but I had heard it would use cars, not trains/similar which already felt stupid but the fact you had to wait for a car coming the other direction just feels beyond the pale. And that's before we get to the the "drivered" car. If ever there was a case where autonomous cars should excel, it's got to be this but instead we have human drivers still. So it's literally Lyft/Uber with extra steps, limited destinations, and the same speed.
damnitbuilds 5mo ago
[flagged]
HugoTea 5mo ago
> A quick check of Google Maps showed the route we were taking, on city streets, took 6 minutes. As we emerged into the sunshine at Westgate, I checked my timer. Six minutes. I’d saved zero minutes. Beautiful
HugoTea 5mo ago
If you think of the Loop system as a way of transporting people then it will obviously look insanely stupid. But if you consider what it really is - an easy way to sell Teslas to cities for no benefit, then it makes perfect sense.
- trismus 5mo ago
  [dead]
Peregrine1 5mo ago
“I tried a prototype outside of its optimal use case and it was half baked.” Surprise surprise!
- jraph 5mo ago
  What is its optimal use case and how is it better than good old subway? (asking a bit naively, it's the first time I hear about it)
  - iamhamm 5mo ago
    The Vegas Loop isn’t really “better” than a subway, it’s more like the best available option given the specific political and financial reality of Las Vegas. Vegas has never had meaningful public transit investment, and a real subway would cost billions and take decades of political will that simply doesn’t exist here. The Loop fits the actual use case: moving convention attendees between LVCC halls and eventually casino properties, quickly, in a city where distances are deceptive and walking in 115° heat is brutal. For that narrow purpose, point-to-point, climate-controlled, short-hop movement in a dense tourist corridor, it works reasonably well. The comparison to a subway is a bit of a category error; no subway was ever on the table. The real question is whether it beats surface-level shuttles and moving walkways, which it probably does. The critique is fair though: it’s not scalable the way a subway is (throughput is limited by number of cars), and it’s privately owned infrastructure serving commercial interests rather than a public transit network.
  - aeternum 5mo ago
    Imagine if the subway car you were riding in could detach from the train, take an exit tunnel to the surface streets then drop you off within a block from your house. AVs in tunnels allow for a wide range of density from 2-seater to high density bus/train-car like vehicles that can convoy through tunnels but still do point-to-point and on-demand. The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is better than 1d travel.
    - kennyadam 5mo ago
      I have so many questions... How many exit tunnels will need to exist for the final above-ground stage of the trip to be quick and not increase the total length of the route significantly? If there are exit tunnels all over the place, how long would it take to build all of them? If there aren't, how do you avoid massive jams as the multiple lanes merge to the single exit tunnel lane? How do all the exit tunnels connect to the surface streets in the many areas where there's no room for another lane to be built anywhere?
cornholio 5mo ago
It's interesting how Loop criticism has evolved over the years: initially, it was claimed Boring Co has no chance of duplicating or significantly improving on the speed and cost of state of the art used by tunneling companies, or that the entire concept is fundamentally impossible or cost-prohibitive to build. After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, an completely unrelated high speed concept. Now, after Loop demonstrated vehicle rates that would beat most light rail projects and many subway systems too - assuming they get adequate automated larger vehicles - the criticism seems to be that it's not build out yet to a significant size, or that it has minor usability quirks. I sure hope these people understand just how foolish that position risks to become if Boring Co continues good execution and build outs the entire system as planed.
- stonogo 5mo ago
  I don't think it changed. The claims went from "this isn't an improvement and it's wildly expensive" to "this isn't an improvement, it's wildly expensive, the result sucks, and it does nothing to test the concepts behind Hyperloop," that last bit being part of the original sales pitch. Asserting that Loop is beating any form of normal rail is a wild claim that I don't think I've ever heard a transit engineer agree with. In short, I'm not worried about Boring Co continuing good execution, but it would be nice to see Boring Co initiate good execution.
- chickenchickenc 5mo ago
  > After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, a completely unrelated high speed concept. This was the original concept no? It seems like valid criticism that the original prototype is immensely inefficient and slow compared to something even remotely comparable. > Now, after Loop demonstrated vehicle rates that would beat most light rail projects and many subway systems too Genuinely curious where you’re getting this.
- deepvibrations 5mo ago
  Since when did the Loop demonstrate it could beat subway systems? A heavy rail subway line can transport 30,000+ people per hour compared to vegas loop which maxes out at 4500 people/hr. Plus every single Tesla in the tunnel requires a human driver, unlike trains. Even IF Elon managed to create these larger Tesla vans, they won't reach those numbers on a single route.
ChrisArchitect 5mo ago
cleaned up url: https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/vegas-loop-22280647.php https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/vegas-loop-22280647.ph...
aaron695 5mo ago
[dead]
sligor 5mo ago
I never understood how running a car, even electric one, in such small tunnel was considered safe.
- general1465 5mo ago
  This is USA, so unless there is an emotional video of people pleading for help while suffocating to fumes or lot of charred corpses in a tunnel, nothing is going to change. Prevention? That's socialism.
beardyw 5mo ago
I use the London tube (112 miles of it underground) quite often and it is the lines which cross the center which I use most often, and from what I can tell a lot of people do the same. The new east west Elizabeth Line is now heavily used.
duxup 5mo ago
This video gives a first hand experience that seems to cover everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPjODKUxV5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPjODKUxV5g It looks like a project that they just gave up on ...
amai 5mo ago
Why does Las Vegas have no real subway?

47 points by doener 5mo ago

I haven't kept up with the "Loop" concept but I had heard it would use cars, not trains/similar which already felt stupid but the fact you had to wait for a car coming the other direction just feels beyond the pale. And that's before we get to the the "drivered" car. If ever there was a case where autonomous cars should excel, it's got to be this but instead we have human drivers still. So it's literally Lyft/Uber with extra steps, limited destinations, and the same speed.

damnitbuilds 5mo ago

[flagged]

HugoTea 5mo ago

> A quick check of Google Maps showed the route we were taking, on city streets, took 6 minutes. As we emerged into the sunshine at Westgate, I checked my timer. Six minutes. I’d saved zero minutes. Beautiful

HugoTea 5mo ago

If you think of the Loop system as a way of transporting people then it will obviously look insanely stupid. But if you consider what it really is - an easy way to sell Teslas to cities for no benefit, then it makes perfect sense.

trismus 5mo ago
[dead]

Peregrine1 5mo ago

“I tried a prototype outside of its optimal use case and it was half baked.” Surprise surprise!

jraph 5mo ago
What is its optimal use case and how is it better than good old subway? (asking a bit naively, it's the first time I hear about it)
- iamhamm 5mo ago
  The Vegas Loop isn’t really “better” than a subway, it’s more like the best available option given the specific political and financial reality of Las Vegas. Vegas has never had meaningful public transit investment, and a real subway would cost billions and take decades of political will that simply doesn’t exist here. The Loop fits the actual use case: moving convention attendees between LVCC halls and eventually casino properties, quickly, in a city where distances are deceptive and walking in 115° heat is brutal. For that narrow purpose, point-to-point, climate-controlled, short-hop movement in a dense tourist corridor, it works reasonably well. The comparison to a subway is a bit of a category error; no subway was ever on the table. The real question is whether it beats surface-level shuttles and moving walkways, which it probably does. The critique is fair though: it’s not scalable the way a subway is (throughput is limited by number of cars), and it’s privately owned infrastructure serving commercial interests rather than a public transit network.
- aeternum 5mo ago
  Imagine if the subway car you were riding in could detach from the train, take an exit tunnel to the surface streets then drop you off within a block from your house. AVs in tunnels allow for a wide range of density from 2-seater to high density bus/train-car like vehicles that can convoy through tunnels but still do point-to-point and on-demand. The main challenge is convincing the train-obsessed that 3d travel is better than 1d travel.
  - kennyadam 5mo ago
    I have so many questions... How many exit tunnels will need to exist for the final above-ground stage of the trip to be quick and not increase the total length of the route significantly? If there are exit tunnels all over the place, how long would it take to build all of them? If there aren't, how do you avoid massive jams as the multiple lanes merge to the single exit tunnel lane? How do all the exit tunnels connect to the surface streets in the many areas where there's no room for another lane to be built anywhere?

cornholio 5mo ago

It's interesting how Loop criticism has evolved over the years: initially, it was claimed Boring Co has no chance of duplicating or significantly improving on the speed and cost of state of the art used by tunneling companies, or that the entire concept is fundamentally impossible or cost-prohibitive to build. After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, an completely unrelated high speed concept. Now, after Loop demonstrated vehicle rates that would beat most light rail projects and many subway systems too - assuming they get adequate automated larger vehicles - the criticism seems to be that it's not build out yet to a significant size, or that it has minor usability quirks. I sure hope these people understand just how foolish that position risks to become if Boring Co continues good execution and build outs the entire system as planed.

stonogo 5mo ago
I don't think it changed. The claims went from "this isn't an improvement and it's wildly expensive" to "this isn't an improvement, it's wildly expensive, the result sucks, and it does nothing to test the concepts behind Hyperloop," that last bit being part of the original sales pitch. Asserting that Loop is beating any form of normal rail is a wild claim that I don't think I've ever heard a transit engineer agree with. In short, I'm not worried about Boring Co continuing good execution, but it would be nice to see Boring Co initiate good execution.
chickenchickenc 5mo ago
> After building the first stations, it changed to capacity concerns or that it's not Hyperloop, a completely unrelated high speed concept. This was the original concept no? It seems like valid criticism that the original prototype is immensely inefficient and slow compared to something even remotely comparable. > Now, after Loop demonstrated vehicle rates that would beat most light rail projects and many subway systems too Genuinely curious where you’re getting this.
deepvibrations 5mo ago
Since when did the Loop demonstrate it could beat subway systems? A heavy rail subway line can transport 30,000+ people per hour compared to vegas loop which maxes out at 4500 people/hr. Plus every single Tesla in the tunnel requires a human driver, unlike trains. Even IF Elon managed to create these larger Tesla vans, they won't reach those numbers on a single route.

ChrisArchitect 5mo ago

cleaned up url: https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/vegas-loop-22280647.php https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/vegas-loop-22280647.ph...

aaron695 5mo ago

[dead]

sligor 5mo ago

I never understood how running a car, even electric one, in such small tunnel was considered safe.

general1465 5mo ago
This is USA, so unless there is an emotional video of people pleading for help while suffocating to fumes or lot of charred corpses in a tunnel, nothing is going to change. Prevention? That's socialism.

beardyw 5mo ago

I use the London tube (112 miles of it underground) quite often and it is the lines which cross the center which I use most often, and from what I can tell a lot of people do the same. The new east west Elizabeth Line is now heavily used.

duxup 5mo ago

This video gives a first hand experience that seems to cover everything: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPjODKUxV5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPjODKUxV5g It looks like a project that they just gave up on ...

amai 5mo ago

Why does Las Vegas have no real subway?