5 ms·

This is a sensible-seeming take at first blush, but it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny (or maybe my scrutiny is faulty - you tell me!) Sundar and many of his e

by wrsh07 4mo ago

This is a sensible-seeming take at first blush, but it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny (or maybe my scrutiny is faulty - you tell me!) Sundar and many of his executives have certainly read or heard of The Innovator's Dilemma, and I expect they're all moderately paranoid that it will be their downfall. Also, that's not it. Google has a great ai app called Gemini where they have at various points hosted the top ai image generation model (certainly for speed, and for a while for accuracy) and have innovated with features like deep research They are monetizing their ai conversations more effectively than OpenAI could dream of via ads and chat in Google search. They are heavily investing in compute and talent. When they've added llm results to Google search it has _increased_ engagement and re-engagement. What part of the competition are they blissfully ignoring? (I have counter arguments to some of these points, but I would rather hear other people's)

marcus_holmes 4mo ago
I heard Google search volumes by humans were declining, but I can't find the reference now so may be wrong. It's definitely changing the entire SEO industry. Are they actually implementing ads in chat yet? I haven't seen an ad in Gemini yet. Again, the results I've seen is that LLM results in search have resulted in more zero-click searches (as a proportion of all searches), which isn't increasing engagement? But again, I may be wrong, what are you basing your assertion on? I didn't say they were blissfully ignoring anything. I gave them credit for knowing the situation they're in and doing something about it. The problem that I was talking about (probably badly getting my point across) is that it's internal conflict and strife that causes the pain here. One part of the company is incentivised on increasing revenue on the existing business. The other part of the company is incentivised on increasing revenue for the new business. But the new business is at the expense of the old business, so it sets up internal conflict where each part of the business tries to protect its own incentives. And Google has always been afflicted with rife internal politics.
- thefounder 4mo ago
  Even if they include ads in Gemini the issue is that Gemini is not the best AI app. It’s maybe the 3rd or 4th. So if Google becomes the 3rd best “search/AI engine” the future is not that bright.
  - wrsh07 4mo ago
    Gemini is a brand new surface that Google has created to capture the current excitement around AI, but it's not the only surface into which they're shoving AI.^ ChatGPT's growth is incredible, but they essentially have to get all of their growth from inside codex or ChatGPT apps. Google can auto query Gemini with every search. There's an interesting piece of data which is that this tells them (on a conditioned basis^^) when is the chat result more effective than the search and vice versa? Google can force growth of Gemini by leveraging their existing properties. This is a huge asset, and if you're wondering why Meta has artificially high usage of their LLMs it's because distribution is hard and Meta and Google have a lot of surface area to distribute on ^ no, I don't mean this as a compliment, although it does lend credence to the idea that Google is willing to update its current products with AI. ^^ ie conditional on the user's willingness to view the chat result
    - thefounder 4mo ago
      People stop searching (aka googling). They just want to do stuff with AI and Google’s AI stuff is bad. That’s my whole point.
  - surajrmal 4mo ago
    Search's AI mode is by far the most popular "AI app". Most of the time I don't end up using Gemini, it's because search's AI mode is good enough for my needs and I use it out of habit. I imagine a lot of other would-be Gemini users are in similar shoes.
    - wrsh07 4mo ago
      Google doesn't care if you use Gemini or Google search. But they are so so happy if the ai results in search are "good enough" that you don't need to go use a "frontier llm"
- surajrmal 4mo ago
  Google search related ad revenue is still going up. Volume isn't everything. Personally, as llms have gotten better I do more and more product research on Google.
keeda 4mo ago
I agree that all of today's CEOs have learned from history and are paranoid about disruption, and I agree that Google is pivoting effectively and will even thrive in the AI era, given their technical and distribution advantages... but I think their revenues and profits and dominance will be much lower than what they are today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47957708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47957708
- wrsh07 4mo ago
  This take overlooks most of the work that Google has been doing in the past decade. Have you seen their Cloud business? Moreover, Google has continued to drive search growth since ChatGPT arrived and is executing competently. Their models are good (not great), but they have enough compute and one of the best ML-focused chips such that they aren't beholden to Nvidia (instead, they're beholden to fabs: tsmc - this is a much better dependency since Nvidia is hell bent on extracting as much value as they can from their position in the stack and it would be against the nature of tsmc to behave similarly) Will Google's ad revenue decrease? Advertising is an incredible business because it is anti fragile.^ Even if search revenues decrease from their current highs (I would bet heavily against this), they still have YouTube with shorts and a robust display ads business that is going to improve if AI supercharges the economy (more companies - # startups founded in Jan 2026 is much higher than # founded the previous January, more products, advertising and distribution become the differentiators for these products) If you're wondering how anthropic is going to continue to grow its base, the answer is advertising. In fact, Google is situated to fundamentally support everything that anthropic needs. Who cares if they make worse margins than anthropic? They'll benefit from the entire ride up, and they'll do the same for the next startup of that scale. ^ https://stratechery.com/2024/metas-ai-abundance/ https://stratechery.com/2024/metas-ai-abundance/
  - keeda 4mo ago
    Right, but my theory is that the ad business, still the biggest chunk (75%+) of their revenue, is extremely hyper-optimized for the current search journey-based UX and enjoys a monopoly + auction rigging premium (e.g. Project Bernanke) primarily through tremendous ad volume. That is, their current growth is largely based on stuffing more and more ads into commercial-intent SERPs. However the agent-based conversational future simply does not support that level of valuable [1] ad volume, which collapses Google's carefully optimized tech+business stack. Like I said, they will still thrive, but more because of GCP (which might see the biggest growth due to AI and the other tech + infrastructural advantages you mentioned) and the other businesses (YouTube, Waymo, etc.) However, their current cash cow is being disrupted, primarily by themselves, and I don't yet see how they can monetize agents nearly as lucratively as they've monetized search. [1.] Sure, they could keep stuffing ads into each turn of the conversation, but 1) as I theorized in the linked post, those would be meaningless and low-value, and 2) that could just push users to competitors like ChatGPT, Anthropic or Perplexity that can offer a cleaner UX because they're starting from a clean slate and don't (yet) have the same revenue expectations to meet.
dominotw 4mo ago
> What part of the competition are they blissfully ignoring? coding models? their own devs use claude code.
CuriouslyC 4mo ago
Google doesn't seem to "get" agentic autonomy. Their models are trained to solve short problems really well, but they get confused over long time horizon tasks and kinda suck at tool calling to boot.
gls2ro 4mo ago
The thing about Innovator's Dilemma is that even if you know about it you mostly cannot escape your own company culture and norms. If there is a "crack" there you might be able to get out of it, or it will let a disruptive idea to grow, but my way of thinking about innovator's dilemma is that is it a "culture bias": knowing about it give you some small advantage but it needs a real change to maybe have a chance to escape/act on it and the most important part is that under pressure it will quickly and imperceptible run the entire process or decision making.
- wrsh07 4mo ago
  Google ran a code red for a couple months iirc But I also disagree with your reading of the innovators dilemma. You're being far too absolute

by wrsh07 4mo ago

marcus_holmes 4mo ago

I heard Google search volumes by humans were declining, but I can't find the reference now so may be wrong. It's definitely changing the entire SEO industry. Are they actually implementing ads in chat yet? I haven't seen an ad in Gemini yet. Again, the results I've seen is that LLM results in search have resulted in more zero-click searches (as a proportion of all searches), which isn't increasing engagement? But again, I may be wrong, what are you basing your assertion on? I didn't say they were blissfully ignoring anything. I gave them credit for knowing the situation they're in and doing something about it. The problem that I was talking about (probably badly getting my point across) is that it's internal conflict and strife that causes the pain here. One part of the company is incentivised on increasing revenue on the existing business. The other part of the company is incentivised on increasing revenue for the new business. But the new business is at the expense of the old business, so it sets up internal conflict where each part of the business tries to protect its own incentives. And Google has always been afflicted with rife internal politics.

thefounder 4mo ago
Even if they include ads in Gemini the issue is that Gemini is not the best AI app. It’s maybe the 3rd or 4th. So if Google becomes the 3rd best “search/AI engine” the future is not that bright.
- wrsh07 4mo ago
  Gemini is a brand new surface that Google has created to capture the current excitement around AI, but it's not the only surface into which they're shoving AI.^ ChatGPT's growth is incredible, but they essentially have to get all of their growth from inside codex or ChatGPT apps. Google can auto query Gemini with every search. There's an interesting piece of data which is that this tells them (on a conditioned basis^^) when is the chat result more effective than the search and vice versa? Google can force growth of Gemini by leveraging their existing properties. This is a huge asset, and if you're wondering why Meta has artificially high usage of their LLMs it's because distribution is hard and Meta and Google have a lot of surface area to distribute on ^ no, I don't mean this as a compliment, although it does lend credence to the idea that Google is willing to update its current products with AI. ^^ ie conditional on the user's willingness to view the chat result
  - thefounder 4mo ago
    People stop searching (aka googling). They just want to do stuff with AI and Google’s AI stuff is bad. That’s my whole point.
- surajrmal 4mo ago
  Search's AI mode is by far the most popular "AI app". Most of the time I don't end up using Gemini, it's because search's AI mode is good enough for my needs and I use it out of habit. I imagine a lot of other would-be Gemini users are in similar shoes.
  - wrsh07 4mo ago
    Google doesn't care if you use Gemini or Google search. But they are so so happy if the ai results in search are "good enough" that you don't need to go use a "frontier llm"
surajrmal 4mo ago
Google search related ad revenue is still going up. Volume isn't everything. Personally, as llms have gotten better I do more and more product research on Google.

keeda 4mo ago

I agree that all of today's CEOs have learned from history and are paranoid about disruption, and I agree that Google is pivoting effectively and will even thrive in the AI era, given their technical and distribution advantages... but I think their revenues and profits and dominance will be much lower than what they are today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47957708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47957708

wrsh07 4mo ago
This take overlooks most of the work that Google has been doing in the past decade. Have you seen their Cloud business? Moreover, Google has continued to drive search growth since ChatGPT arrived and is executing competently. Their models are good (not great), but they have enough compute and one of the best ML-focused chips such that they aren't beholden to Nvidia (instead, they're beholden to fabs: tsmc - this is a much better dependency since Nvidia is hell bent on extracting as much value as they can from their position in the stack and it would be against the nature of tsmc to behave similarly) Will Google's ad revenue decrease? Advertising is an incredible business because it is anti fragile.^ Even if search revenues decrease from their current highs (I would bet heavily against this), they still have YouTube with shorts and a robust display ads business that is going to improve if AI supercharges the economy (more companies - # startups founded in Jan 2026 is much higher than # founded the previous January, more products, advertising and distribution become the differentiators for these products) If you're wondering how anthropic is going to continue to grow its base, the answer is advertising. In fact, Google is situated to fundamentally support everything that anthropic needs. Who cares if they make worse margins than anthropic? They'll benefit from the entire ride up, and they'll do the same for the next startup of that scale. ^ https://stratechery.com/2024/metas-ai-abundance/ https://stratechery.com/2024/metas-ai-abundance/
- keeda 4mo ago
  Right, but my theory is that the ad business, still the biggest chunk (75%+) of their revenue, is extremely hyper-optimized for the current search journey-based UX and enjoys a monopoly + auction rigging premium (e.g. Project Bernanke) primarily through tremendous ad volume. That is, their current growth is largely based on stuffing more and more ads into commercial-intent SERPs. However the agent-based conversational future simply does not support that level of valuable [1] ad volume, which collapses Google's carefully optimized tech+business stack. Like I said, they will still thrive, but more because of GCP (which might see the biggest growth due to AI and the other tech + infrastructural advantages you mentioned) and the other businesses (YouTube, Waymo, etc.) However, their current cash cow is being disrupted, primarily by themselves, and I don't yet see how they can monetize agents nearly as lucratively as they've monetized search. [1.] Sure, they could keep stuffing ads into each turn of the conversation, but 1) as I theorized in the linked post, those would be meaningless and low-value, and 2) that could just push users to competitors like ChatGPT, Anthropic or Perplexity that can offer a cleaner UX because they're starting from a clean slate and don't (yet) have the same revenue expectations to meet.

dominotw 4mo ago

> What part of the competition are they blissfully ignoring? coding models? their own devs use claude code.

CuriouslyC 4mo ago

Google doesn't seem to "get" agentic autonomy. Their models are trained to solve short problems really well, but they get confused over long time horizon tasks and kinda suck at tool calling to boot.

gls2ro 4mo ago

The thing about Innovator's Dilemma is that even if you know about it you mostly cannot escape your own company culture and norms. If there is a "crack" there you might be able to get out of it, or it will let a disruptive idea to grow, but my way of thinking about innovator's dilemma is that is it a "culture bias": knowing about it give you some small advantage but it needs a real change to maybe have a chance to escape/act on it and the most important part is that under pressure it will quickly and imperceptible run the entire process or decision making.

wrsh07 4mo ago
Google ran a code red for a couple months iirc But I also disagree with your reading of the innovators dilemma. You're being far too absolute