4 ms·

Pogroms, American Style

47 points by rbanffy 5mo ago

hungryhobbit 5mo ago
The irony is that anyone who's a Jew (and many who don't) know the phase "Never again". It's meant to convey "never again will we let concentration camps, pogroms, and the like happen". And yet ... like a lot of things humans claim to believe in ... some Jews (and others who claim to believe in "never again") not only ignore "never again" ... they're at the forefront of pushing for these policies! And if you ask some of them about the contradiction, it comes out that (to them) the phrase only means "never again ... to Jews". Doing to other people what the Nazis (and Russians, and all sorts of other groups throughout history) have done to the Jews is ok ... as long as "someone who isn't like me" is the victim.
- jewthrow467843 5mo ago
  This story has nothing to do with Jews or Jewish views. Blaming Jews for everything is so 1930s.
  - pstuart 5mo ago
    It's unfortunately very much a thing still. The Right only cares about Israel for 2 reasons: 1. That sweet, sweet AIPAC money (but that's a "both sides" issue) 2. Enabling the apocalypse that they crave This isn't snark, it's how things are -- all of this is easily verified: https://www.trackaipac.com/candidates https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/apr/13/end-times-fascism-far-right-trump-musk And first reasonable hit on the anti-semitism thing (but plenty more out there): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11922252/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11922252/
- zappb 5mo ago
  You are making antisemitic accusations.
  - iamajewmyself 5mo ago
    Go and read the calls to kill palestinians and "goyim" in general on israeli newspspers sites, denying them the basic dignity as humans. Then speak about "antisemitism", hypocrite.
  - hungryhobbit 5mo ago
    And you are being a antisemitic by claiming all Jews support Israel. Jews are not one unified people who all share the same thoughts and beliefs. Pretending they are is (ultimately) doing the same thing Jew haters (and homophobes, and racists, and ...) do.
    - throw368831 5mo ago
      Don’t appropriate “antisemitism” in support of your antisemitism. That’s disgusting.
- nozzlegear 5mo ago
  > And if you ask some of them about the contradiction, it comes out that (to them) the phrase only means "never again ... to Jews". Who have you actually asked about this? I defy you to name a real Jewish person that you've asked this question, who has given you that answer. I want proof.
  - hungryhobbit 5mo ago
    There are entire class of them ("neocons" ... and those are from the only Jews who don't give a crap about another Holocaust happening to Palestinians). I don't know what you expect me to do, introduce you to one?
pstuart 5mo ago
Odds are high this will get flagged, but it's worthy of discussion here. The problem is the discussion is done purely on emotional terms (e.g., "bad people come in and hurt good people") vs what are the benefits and what are the costs and how do they add up? Also, how do we have a system that ensure that the process is optimized to maximize the benefit and minimize the cost?
- sterlind 5mo ago
  selectively going after the bad people - violent criminals and the like - seems like a good start. CBP/HSI is currently driven by a quota system, to my knowledge. quotas incentivize going after the most law-abiding people because they're safer and easier to nab. a lot could be gained simply by rewarding ICE agents based on how dangerous the people they apprehend are, rather than measuring headcount.
  - pstuart 5mo ago
    I think one would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would say "please let dangerous people in". There is a system in place to address that, but no doubt could be improved. And for those who had family arrive much earlier (such as myself), the criteria for entry was incredibly lax. My mother's side came in the early 1900's so was subject to the 1906 Naturalization Act which basically said "you have to speak english and tell us about family members". My father's side was here early enough to basically just be here long enough and then it's a done deal. As the OP states, these pogroms are rooted in racism and otherism, and the cruelty is the point. We can do better than that.
- kashunstva 5mo ago
  Given that the people being rounded up in extrajudicial raids and held in deplorable conditions are actual humans with feelings, families, friends, memories, communities, how can emotion not be at the centre? Yes, policy must be considered. But the main design consideration here seems to be inflicting terror. The current administration has shown no willingness to step back and think this through in the systematic way you suggest.
sterlind 5mo ago
hate feels good. when you really hate someone (or a group of people) your hatred feels justified. no wonder "FAFO" has become such a popular acronym of late. not that everyone (or even most people) believe what they're feeling is hatred. maybe you call it "deserved justice," or "an eye for an eye" or "harsh but necessary." but if you feel Schadenfreude - catharsis or pleasure from someone's suffering - then you're feeling hatred. as a trans woman, I (and my people) are often on the receiving end of this. to be clear, I'm not saying that any opposition to trans rights is borne of hatred, any more than any support of border enforcement is hatred. but if you feel that catharsis at the anguish of a group you oppose, be honest with yourself: why?
- pstuart 5mo ago
  > I'm not saying that any opposition to trans rights is borne of hatred As a cis man, I'll say that it likely is borne of hatred, but more so, as a tool to rile the masses to be angry enough to vote for whoever feeds that hate. The only good thing I can say about transphobia is that it's a sign that homophobia has pretty much run its course as a political wedge issue.
  - sterlind 5mo ago
    > As a cis man, I'll say that it likely is borne of hatred, but more so, as a tool to rile the masses to be angry enough to vote for whoever feeds that hate. certainly a lot of it is, but I think there truly are people with sincere religious or moral beliefs that don't wish any ill on trans people despite opposing our decisions. acknowledging that is fairly key to building bridges, imo. (also because I expected to be downvoted to oblivion, so I tried to make my take as measured and nonthreatening as possible. I did not succeed, it appears.)
    - pstuart 5mo ago
      As anti-religion as I am, I never want to ascribe malice to anyone just because they are religious. But once they use their faith as a weapon against others it cross the line of decency. There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about the subject because to you it's not "normal", but thats on you if it is.
Muhlhauser25 5mo ago
If they actually delivered on their promise of deporting all undocumented immigrants (5% of the labor force), the profitability of farming, hospitality, construction, and restaurants would collapse overnight. They have to create this spectacle to keep their cultural base happy.
- 1attice 5mo ago
  So, pogroms. What you describe is called a pogrom.
  - Muhlhauser25 5mo ago
    That's correct, I agree with Krugman's use of the term pogrom here if that wasn't clear.
cboyardee 5mo ago
[dead]

47 points by rbanffy 5mo ago

The irony is that anyone who's a Jew (and many who don't) know the phase "Never again". It's meant to convey "never again will we let concentration camps, pogroms, and the like happen". And yet ... like a lot of things humans claim to believe in ... some Jews (and others who claim to believe in "never again") not only ignore "never again" ... they're at the forefront of pushing for these policies! And if you ask some of them about the contradiction, it comes out that (to them) the phrase only means "never again ... to Jews". Doing to other people what the Nazis (and Russians, and all sorts of other groups throughout history) have done to the Jews is ok ... as long as "someone who isn't like me" is the victim.

jewthrow467843 5mo ago
This story has nothing to do with Jews or Jewish views. Blaming Jews for everything is so 1930s.
- pstuart 5mo ago
  It's unfortunately very much a thing still. The Right only cares about Israel for 2 reasons: 1. That sweet, sweet AIPAC money (but that's a "both sides" issue) 2. Enabling the apocalypse that they crave This isn't snark, it's how things are -- all of this is easily verified: https://www.trackaipac.com/candidates https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2025/apr/13/end-times-fascism-far-right-trump-musk And first reasonable hit on the anti-semitism thing (but plenty more out there): https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11922252/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11922252/
zappb 5mo ago
You are making antisemitic accusations.
- iamajewmyself 5mo ago
  Go and read the calls to kill palestinians and "goyim" in general on israeli newspspers sites, denying them the basic dignity as humans. Then speak about "antisemitism", hypocrite.
- hungryhobbit 5mo ago
  And you are being a antisemitic by claiming all Jews support Israel. Jews are not one unified people who all share the same thoughts and beliefs. Pretending they are is (ultimately) doing the same thing Jew haters (and homophobes, and racists, and ...) do.
  - throw368831 5mo ago
    Don’t appropriate “antisemitism” in support of your antisemitism. That’s disgusting.
nozzlegear 5mo ago
> And if you ask some of them about the contradiction, it comes out that (to them) the phrase only means "never again ... to Jews". Who have you actually asked about this? I defy you to name a real Jewish person that you've asked this question, who has given you that answer. I want proof.
- hungryhobbit 5mo ago
  There are entire class of them ("neocons" ... and those are from the only Jews who don't give a crap about another Holocaust happening to Palestinians). I don't know what you expect me to do, introduce you to one?

pstuart 5mo ago

Odds are high this will get flagged, but it's worthy of discussion here. The problem is the discussion is done purely on emotional terms (e.g., "bad people come in and hurt good people") vs what are the benefits and what are the costs and how do they add up? Also, how do we have a system that ensure that the process is optimized to maximize the benefit and minimize the cost?

sterlind 5mo ago
selectively going after the bad people - violent criminals and the like - seems like a good start. CBP/HSI is currently driven by a quota system, to my knowledge. quotas incentivize going after the most law-abiding people because they're safer and easier to nab. a lot could be gained simply by rewarding ICE agents based on how dangerous the people they apprehend are, rather than measuring headcount.
- pstuart 5mo ago
  I think one would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would say "please let dangerous people in". There is a system in place to address that, but no doubt could be improved. And for those who had family arrive much earlier (such as myself), the criteria for entry was incredibly lax. My mother's side came in the early 1900's so was subject to the 1906 Naturalization Act which basically said "you have to speak english and tell us about family members". My father's side was here early enough to basically just be here long enough and then it's a done deal. As the OP states, these pogroms are rooted in racism and otherism, and the cruelty is the point. We can do better than that.
kashunstva 5mo ago
Given that the people being rounded up in extrajudicial raids and held in deplorable conditions are actual humans with feelings, families, friends, memories, communities, how can emotion not be at the centre? Yes, policy must be considered. But the main design consideration here seems to be inflicting terror. The current administration has shown no willingness to step back and think this through in the systematic way you suggest.

sterlind 5mo ago

hate feels good. when you really hate someone (or a group of people) your hatred feels justified. no wonder "FAFO" has become such a popular acronym of late. not that everyone (or even most people) believe what they're feeling is hatred. maybe you call it "deserved justice," or "an eye for an eye" or "harsh but necessary." but if you feel Schadenfreude - catharsis or pleasure from someone's suffering - then you're feeling hatred. as a trans woman, I (and my people) are often on the receiving end of this. to be clear, I'm not saying that any opposition to trans rights is borne of hatred, any more than any support of border enforcement is hatred. but if you feel that catharsis at the anguish of a group you oppose, be honest with yourself: why?

pstuart 5mo ago
> I'm not saying that any opposition to trans rights is borne of hatred As a cis man, I'll say that it likely is borne of hatred, but more so, as a tool to rile the masses to be angry enough to vote for whoever feeds that hate. The only good thing I can say about transphobia is that it's a sign that homophobia has pretty much run its course as a political wedge issue.
- sterlind 5mo ago
  > As a cis man, I'll say that it likely is borne of hatred, but more so, as a tool to rile the masses to be angry enough to vote for whoever feeds that hate. certainly a lot of it is, but I think there truly are people with sincere religious or moral beliefs that don't wish any ill on trans people despite opposing our decisions. acknowledging that is fairly key to building bridges, imo. (also because I expected to be downvoted to oblivion, so I tried to make my take as measured and nonthreatening as possible. I did not succeed, it appears.)
  - pstuart 5mo ago
    As anti-religion as I am, I never want to ascribe malice to anyone just because they are religious. But once they use their faith as a weapon against others it cross the line of decency. There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about the subject because to you it's not "normal", but thats on you if it is.

Muhlhauser25 5mo ago

If they actually delivered on their promise of deporting all undocumented immigrants (5% of the labor force), the profitability of farming, hospitality, construction, and restaurants would collapse overnight. They have to create this spectacle to keep their cultural base happy.

1attice 5mo ago
So, pogroms. What you describe is called a pogrom.
- Muhlhauser25 5mo ago
  That's correct, I agree with Krugman's use of the term pogrom here if that wasn't clear.

cboyardee 5mo ago

[dead]