4 ms·

" At the end of the day, there is a certain irony in spec work. A prospect requesting it is ultimately saying, 'My project isn’t important enough to hire a prof

by dablya 18y ago

" At the end of the day, there is a certain irony in spec work. A prospect requesting it is ultimately saying, 'My project isn’t important enough to hire a professional who will take the time to understand my situation and goals and invest the time needed to create a suitable solution.' " Is there something wrong with is? If I want to create a webapp and have no clue about graphic design, I would be happy with something that looks ok. I'm not looking for somebody to understand my situation, I just want something better then a border="1" table with default buttons.

run4yourlives 18y ago
What's wrong is that you won't be paying "them" to do it. In other words, no.
- tptacek 18y ago
  What are you talking about? Soliciting spec work and then shoplifting it without paying is exactly that --- theft. But asking designers to take potentially billable hours to audition is also just that: an audition. If you win, you get paid. Obviously you're not going to get Happy Cog or Coudal to participate in spec projects, but that just seems like the market working; proven talent doesn't need to audition, because they get their pick of projects. Indie filmmakers probably won't ask Ed Norton to audition either.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    You're misreading my comment. "them" means those that support no-spec campaigns, not designers in general. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
    - tptacek 18y ago
      Sorry, it's a holiday, so I'm geeking out on message boards bigtime to avoid actual work.
tptacek 18y ago
Of course there's nothing wrong with it. I want my offices to look nice, too, but I don't need a weeklong branding consultation to figure out what kind of potted plants best complement my company's persona. I think this is a classic business model problem with consultative services: 60-80% of the work is, in fact, cookie-cutter stuff that can be executed by any barely-competant practioner, and the remaining 20-40% doesn't easily command the premium required to staff an expert firm. So firms pretend that the low-margin 60% doesn't exist. I don't get why graphic design, alone among all professional service practices, should be exempt from project risk. Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship; I've tried to do the same thing with my clients, prospects, and peers.
- alabut 18y ago
  "Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship." Offering advice is completely different than them drawing up a few sample usable contracts for you to use without restriction, all as a taste of more possible work to come. Why is it that some programmers think design is so easy? Designers that think programming is easy bug the shit out of me so the reverse is no less arrogant. The percentage breakdown is taken completely out of thin air or maybe only applies to mid-level designers with cookie cutter work. Having said all that, I'm a designer that's actually not against crowdsourcing designs (I like crowdspring more than 99designs) because it's not the same as spec work. Rather than a one-on-one type of relationship without any transparency, basically a closed door job audition, the crowdsourcing sites allow designers to compete openly and showcase their talent, even if their work isn't selected. They can also reuse work that isn't selected for future projects, for design layouts at least (not so much for logos), and eat the whole buffalo as it were.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    It's funny, because WSGR (probably the most famous of the Bay Area law firms) did exactly that with YC, drafting a series of term sheet contracts for free. I don't think design work is easy, and I'm not saying I advocate spec work as a sound business choice, but I don't see the ethical problem. Design firms sound a lot like realtors when they talk about boycotting things like 99designs. And again, it is also the case that for 80% of the market, "competant" is the hurdle, not "groundbreaking" or even "distinctive". People who need "competant" design are ill-served by projects padded with weeklong branding sessions, or even multiple rough comps to choose from.

by dablya 18y ago

run4yourlives 18y ago

What's wrong is that you won't be paying "them" to do it. In other words, no.

tptacek 18y ago
What are you talking about? Soliciting spec work and then shoplifting it without paying is exactly that --- theft. But asking designers to take potentially billable hours to audition is also just that: an audition. If you win, you get paid. Obviously you're not going to get Happy Cog or Coudal to participate in spec projects, but that just seems like the market working; proven talent doesn't need to audition, because they get their pick of projects. Indie filmmakers probably won't ask Ed Norton to audition either.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  You're misreading my comment. "them" means those that support no-spec campaigns, not designers in general. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    Sorry, it's a holiday, so I'm geeking out on message boards bigtime to avoid actual work.

tptacek 18y ago

Of course there's nothing wrong with it. I want my offices to look nice, too, but I don't need a weeklong branding consultation to figure out what kind of potted plants best complement my company's persona. I think this is a classic business model problem with consultative services: 60-80% of the work is, in fact, cookie-cutter stuff that can be executed by any barely-competant practioner, and the remaining 20-40% doesn't easily command the premium required to staff an expert firm. So firms pretend that the low-margin 60% doesn't exist. I don't get why graphic design, alone among all professional service practices, should be exempt from project risk. Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship; I've tried to do the same thing with my clients, prospects, and peers.

alabut 18y ago
"Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship." Offering advice is completely different than them drawing up a few sample usable contracts for you to use without restriction, all as a taste of more possible work to come. Why is it that some programmers think design is so easy? Designers that think programming is easy bug the shit out of me so the reverse is no less arrogant. The percentage breakdown is taken completely out of thin air or maybe only applies to mid-level designers with cookie cutter work. Having said all that, I'm a designer that's actually not against crowdsourcing designs (I like crowdspring more than 99designs) because it's not the same as spec work. Rather than a one-on-one type of relationship without any transparency, basically a closed door job audition, the crowdsourcing sites allow designers to compete openly and showcase their talent, even if their work isn't selected. They can also reuse work that isn't selected for future projects, for design layouts at least (not so much for logos), and eat the whole buffalo as it were.
- tptacek 18y ago
  It's funny, because WSGR (probably the most famous of the Bay Area law firms) did exactly that with YC, drafting a series of term sheet contracts for free. I don't think design work is easy, and I'm not saying I advocate spec work as a sound business choice, but I don't see the ethical problem. Design firms sound a lot like realtors when they talk about boycotting things like 99designs. And again, it is also the case that for 80% of the market, "competant" is the hurdle, not "groundbreaking" or even "distinctive". People who need "competant" design are ill-served by projects padded with weeklong branding sessions, or even multiple rough comps to choose from.