6 ms·

My experience with Surfaces and, particularly, the Surface Book and its accompanying dock were such that I'd have to be paid to use one again. For example, the

My experience with Surfaces and, particularly, the Surface Book and its accompanying dock were such that I'd have to be paid to use one again. For example, the dock would get its own updates silently and brick itself randomly and the proprietary magnetic connector between the dock and the computer was prone to a poor connection. I remember many occasions trying to work and my screens just randomly blinking in and out. To get service we'd have to go to a local Microsoft Store, a sad replica of the aging Apple "shiny glass minimalism" aesthetic, which have since all closed so we'd have to mail the thing today instead.

dboreham 4mo ago
I've used surfaces of various kinds for more than 10 years. Overall they've been significantly less troublesome than the laptops from other major brands I've had over the same period. I put this down to the dogfood eating nature of the Surface. Whoever is responsible for the sound interface driver in a Dell laptop is unlikely to be a user of that laptop and even less likely to have the capability to get Dell to ship a fixed version. Microsoft however I suspect uses Surfacen extensively in house. In this respect it makes the Surface products more akin to Apple computers. The same is probably true for high end Chromebooks. I never used a dock, fwiw.
- RankingMember 4mo ago
  > Whoever is responsible for the sound interface driver in a Dell laptop is unlikely to be a user of that laptop and even less likely to have the capability to get Dell to ship a fixed version Oh boy, don't get me started on Dell haha. Sure, they've got a better service model (people come to you), but at least in my experience they contract with service people who service multiple brands who can't help but shit-talk Dell. Not very confidence inspiring, particularly when the cause of the issue ends up being a connector not being fully plugged in from the factory.
  - szundi 4mo ago
    [dead]
- tanjtanjtanj 4mo ago
  A couple anecdotes from me: A (quite large) company that I worked for stopped offering surfaces to employees after the average lifetime over the 3 years they offered them was under 1 year. We even had a terrible batch of Dells at the same time that still handily outlived the surfaces. Small sample size (N=3) but, nobody I know that works at Microsoft uses a surface or any other Microsoft branded laptop.
- musictubes 4mo ago
  I have never used any of the Surface products but I do remember how people liked the almost no questions asked replacement policy for them at the Microsoft stores. I knew a guy that worked there and he said it was an all day occurrence.
exmadscientist 4mo ago
I worked with some of the people responsible for the Surface Book, Surface docks, and specifically the Surface Book's dock. These were hardware people (EEs), not software people, and this was after their time at MS. Unfortunately I don't remember specifics (both because it's been a few years, and because I'd probably have to fuzz details anyway), but... : Docks are horrifying products. Thunderbolt docks are doubly horrifying. They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. The Thunderbolt interface in particular, and the firmware that needed to run on that interface controller, was the source of a lot of issues. None of them were particularly intrinisc to the protocol, but the hardware available was junk and the software available was worse. They couldn't really order up a custom non-garbage IC just for a $100 accessory that sells in limited volume. (Apple, however, could and would; they'd also demand to control the whole stack. This shows.) They were very proud they got the thing working as well as they did, even though they all knew it was still pretty much trash. It was still better than the competition. Which is sad, but what can you do? (At least it wasn't the Wi-Fi chip. The Surface Book's Wi-Fi adapter was chosen by higher-ups as the same one used in the XBox, presumably for sourcing reasons. It is trash. Again, much blood, sweat, and tears were spilled making it work as well as it does.) (I also have the exact circuit for the LED that lights up on the charger cable. Apparently it was a big deal, which I find hilarious.)
- whateverboat 4mo ago
  > They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. It is so hard to believe that when more than 1000 employees at my employers are also using at least one dock (Dell and Thinkpad both) and using them very well.
  - mschuster91 4mo ago
    We are talking about a situation some years past. I member there were USB docks that if you had them attached to external power and ethernet, but not a laptop, they'd instant-kill the network by sending garbage frames that would cause switches to fault off. Only around 2024-ish the situation with USB and TB docks seemed to stabilize.
anonymars 4mo ago
My absolute favorite fact about the Surface is that if the battery runs out, the Surface Dock power is unable to bootstrap it. You have to plug in a charger Not sure if that's still the case but truly astonishing https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/surface-dock/troubleshoot-surface-dock-or-surface-docking-station#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20using%20a%20Surface%20Dock%3A%20If%20the%20Surface%20device%20battery%20is%20empty%2C%20first%20charge%20it%20using%20the%20power%20supply%20that%20came%20with%20the%20device%20for%20a%20few%20minutes%20before%20trying%20to%20charge%20with%20the%20Surface%20Dock%20again. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/surface-dock/tro...
- cobalt 4mo ago
  there is a hidden paperclip button you can unlock it with
- acchow 4mo ago
  I had a similar issue with the Nikon Z5 full frame camera. It can be charged via the built-in USB-C socket only if the battery still has some charge. If the battery is fully dead, you have to remove it and charge it using the separate battery charger. That means you can't travel with only a USB-C cable.
- 10000truths 4mo ago
  To be fair, my MacBook Pro had the same issue - if the battery was dead, charging via USB-C wouldn't work, it would need the MagSafe charger. Presumably because the USB controller needs power in order to negotiate power delivery.
  - cthalupa 4mo ago
    Never had this issue with any of my MBP. I never even have magsafe available, couldn't tell you where a USB-C to magsafe cable is in my house if my life depended on it.
    - 10000truths 4mo ago
      In my specific case, the laptop was already at low (<10%) battery when I closed the lid, and it sat for several days without a top-up.
joelshep 4mo ago
Interesting. I've had exactly the opposite experience. The Surfaces I've owned (3 so far, over the last 8 years) have been much more reliable than the other Windows laptops I've used over the same time period (mostly at work). To the point I bought myself one for work and didn't bother trying to expense it because I was so happy to have a laptop I could rely on (and I could use it for personal use once it was "retired"). Not invalidating your experiences, but they've been really solid for me.
AustinDev 4mo ago
Counter-point the Surface Studio was one of the best PCs for drafting and design we've ever owned.
- tortilla 4mo ago
  and love the 3:2 monitor aspect ratio
  - AustinDev 4mo ago
    Yeah that was really the cherry on top. Just sublime to use.
smrtinsert 4mo ago
I also had a bad experience, but I'm willing to throw all that out of the window after seeing that it had 128 unified memory on a CUDA enabled device. This is an AI native dream machine from what I can tell. I'm almost obligated to buy one.
- regexorcist 4mo ago
  Sadly memory bandwidth, which is the bottleneck for AI, is pretty disappointing.
aksss 4mo ago
I remember these issues from earlier Surfaces. I was not impressed. Latest ones are pretty dope tho, IME.
866-RON-0-FEZ 4mo ago
Thunderbolt docks being absolute dogshit is universal across the market, it's not limited to one manufacturer. Apple doesn't have this problem because they don't even make docks they're so problematic. Enjoy dongles, Mac users. Modern docks usually run their own internal OS and require frequent reboots to even attempt to appear stable. The worst part is most use docks to get Ethernet, but docks nearly universally use low quality USB Ethernet controllers internally (vs PCI) making the whole exercise rather pointless.
- musictubes 4mo ago
  Is it too late to point out that what most people call dongles are actually adapters? A dongle doesn’t have any pass through.
- rconti 4mo ago
  I've been super happy with my Caldigit TS3 for my various Macs.
  - adamfarhadi 4mo ago
    Same here. My TS3 Plus is around 7 years old now and I’m still daily driving it. Haven’t experienced any issues at all and I’ve used it with various Windows/MacOS/Linux computers.
    - twoWhlsGud 4mo ago
      I got my TS3 after it had been out awhile and it's been great for me, also. Wonder how the current (TB5) versions are. They generally seem to take a few (?) years to really get the firmware working properly.
- robotresearcher 4mo ago
  Apple’s displays are docks in that they supply power, usb ports, camera, sound, and recently thunderbolt pass through. They put a big chunk of an old iPad in there to run the thing. Overkill but they own the electronics and software.
yndoendo 4mo ago
You have to pay me to use Microsoft. There software has become garbage and alternatives are far more better. I cannot think of a single product they have I will be willing to use personally. Hardware, Frameworks has replaced any other OEM in the market for me. You have to pay me to use Dell, HP, Microsoft, Asus, Apple, ...
eboy 4mo ago
[dead]
Krasnol 4mo ago
I've been managing dozens of Surfaces for work. Never had any issues with them. Solid hardware and a good alternative to the Lenovo Thinkpads we're also using but "don't look so nice".
paj26 4mo ago
I similarly bought a surface laptop during Covid WFH - better Remote Desktop experience for the windows shop I was working at. Assumed that spending the extra for premium Microsoft hardware, “it just works” - not at all. I ended up using my Mac’s USB-C Ethernet dongle because the dock would just lose the Ethernet driver. Insane for an ecosystem fully owned by one company, but very telling of the company.
rbanffy 4mo ago
> local Microsoft Store The backrooms version of an Apple Store… I’ve been to precisely one and it was, indeed, a sad experience. You’d also need to pay me a lot to use Windows. I even have an assigned Windows virtual desktop at work, but I also have a MacBook for actual work - the VDI is only used for the stuff that doesn’t quite work right on Macs.
- twoWhlsGud 4mo ago
  They weren't exactly hopping, but having a local store where you could get hardware support was a big deal, for me at least. I stopped buying Surface devices and switched entirely back to Apple for anything mobile when they closed the MS store near me.
tannhaeuser 4mo ago
I only have used the power connector on a Surface Go tablet but have really no complaints. I've never been much of an MS person, but with that thing Windows (10) certainly left on a high note for me.
chollida1 4mo ago
Oh wow. I love mine, so much that I've never been back to the apple laptop eco system since. The two surface laptops I've had are the best laptops I've owned. The build it rock solid, its trivial to run wsl for a Linux environment and I still get a windows environment for work with excel, etc. The keys don't come off the keyboard like they do with my old mac chicklet style laptop keys and even my 10 year old can still drive multiple external monitors.

dboreham 4mo ago

I've used surfaces of various kinds for more than 10 years. Overall they've been significantly less troublesome than the laptops from other major brands I've had over the same period. I put this down to the dogfood eating nature of the Surface. Whoever is responsible for the sound interface driver in a Dell laptop is unlikely to be a user of that laptop and even less likely to have the capability to get Dell to ship a fixed version. Microsoft however I suspect uses Surfacen extensively in house. In this respect it makes the Surface products more akin to Apple computers. The same is probably true for high end Chromebooks. I never used a dock, fwiw.

RankingMember 4mo ago
> Whoever is responsible for the sound interface driver in a Dell laptop is unlikely to be a user of that laptop and even less likely to have the capability to get Dell to ship a fixed version Oh boy, don't get me started on Dell haha. Sure, they've got a better service model (people come to you), but at least in my experience they contract with service people who service multiple brands who can't help but shit-talk Dell. Not very confidence inspiring, particularly when the cause of the issue ends up being a connector not being fully plugged in from the factory.
- szundi 4mo ago
  [dead]
tanjtanjtanj 4mo ago
A couple anecdotes from me: A (quite large) company that I worked for stopped offering surfaces to employees after the average lifetime over the 3 years they offered them was under 1 year. We even had a terrible batch of Dells at the same time that still handily outlived the surfaces. Small sample size (N=3) but, nobody I know that works at Microsoft uses a surface or any other Microsoft branded laptop.
musictubes 4mo ago
I have never used any of the Surface products but I do remember how people liked the almost no questions asked replacement policy for them at the Microsoft stores. I knew a guy that worked there and he said it was an all day occurrence.

exmadscientist 4mo ago

I worked with some of the people responsible for the Surface Book, Surface docks, and specifically the Surface Book's dock. These were hardware people (EEs), not software people, and this was after their time at MS. Unfortunately I don't remember specifics (both because it's been a few years, and because I'd probably have to fuzz details anyway), but... : Docks are horrifying products. Thunderbolt docks are doubly horrifying. They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. The Thunderbolt interface in particular, and the firmware that needed to run on that interface controller, was the source of a lot of issues. None of them were particularly intrinisc to the protocol, but the hardware available was junk and the software available was worse. They couldn't really order up a custom non-garbage IC just for a $100 accessory that sells in limited volume. (Apple, however, could and would; they'd also demand to control the whole stack. This shows.) They were very proud they got the thing working as well as they did, even though they all knew it was still pretty much trash. It was still better than the competition. Which is sad, but what can you do? (At least it wasn't the Wi-Fi chip. The Surface Book's Wi-Fi adapter was chosen by higher-ups as the same one used in the XBox, presumably for sourcing reasons. It is trash. Again, much blood, sweat, and tears were spilled making it work as well as it does.) (I also have the exact circuit for the LED that lights up on the charger cable. Apparently it was a big deal, which I find hilarious.)

whateverboat 4mo ago
> They ordered in every single competing dock they could find, from that era's products, and found that every last one was garbage in some way or other, usually fatally so. It is so hard to believe that when more than 1000 employees at my employers are also using at least one dock (Dell and Thinkpad both) and using them very well.
- mschuster91 4mo ago
  We are talking about a situation some years past. I member there were USB docks that if you had them attached to external power and ethernet, but not a laptop, they'd instant-kill the network by sending garbage frames that would cause switches to fault off. Only around 2024-ish the situation with USB and TB docks seemed to stabilize.

anonymars 4mo ago

My absolute favorite fact about the Surface is that if the battery runs out, the Surface Dock power is unable to bootstrap it. You have to plug in a charger Not sure if that's still the case but truly astonishing https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/surface-dock/troubleshoot-surface-dock-or-surface-docking-station#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20using%20a%20Surface%20Dock%3A%20If%20the%20Surface%20device%20battery%20is%20empty%2C%20first%20charge%20it%20using%20the%20power%20supply%20that%20came%20with%20the%20device%20for%20a%20few%20minutes%20before%20trying%20to%20charge%20with%20the%20Surface%20Dock%20again. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/surface-dock/tro...

cobalt 4mo ago
there is a hidden paperclip button you can unlock it with
acchow 4mo ago
I had a similar issue with the Nikon Z5 full frame camera. It can be charged via the built-in USB-C socket only if the battery still has some charge. If the battery is fully dead, you have to remove it and charge it using the separate battery charger. That means you can't travel with only a USB-C cable.
10000truths 4mo ago
To be fair, my MacBook Pro had the same issue - if the battery was dead, charging via USB-C wouldn't work, it would need the MagSafe charger. Presumably because the USB controller needs power in order to negotiate power delivery.
- cthalupa 4mo ago
  Never had this issue with any of my MBP. I never even have magsafe available, couldn't tell you where a USB-C to magsafe cable is in my house if my life depended on it.
  - 10000truths 4mo ago
    In my specific case, the laptop was already at low (<10%) battery when I closed the lid, and it sat for several days without a top-up.

joelshep 4mo ago

Interesting. I've had exactly the opposite experience. The Surfaces I've owned (3 so far, over the last 8 years) have been much more reliable than the other Windows laptops I've used over the same time period (mostly at work). To the point I bought myself one for work and didn't bother trying to expense it because I was so happy to have a laptop I could rely on (and I could use it for personal use once it was "retired"). Not invalidating your experiences, but they've been really solid for me.

AustinDev 4mo ago

Counter-point the Surface Studio was one of the best PCs for drafting and design we've ever owned.

tortilla 4mo ago
and love the 3:2 monitor aspect ratio
- AustinDev 4mo ago
  Yeah that was really the cherry on top. Just sublime to use.

smrtinsert 4mo ago

I also had a bad experience, but I'm willing to throw all that out of the window after seeing that it had 128 unified memory on a CUDA enabled device. This is an AI native dream machine from what I can tell. I'm almost obligated to buy one.

regexorcist 4mo ago
Sadly memory bandwidth, which is the bottleneck for AI, is pretty disappointing.

aksss 4mo ago

I remember these issues from earlier Surfaces. I was not impressed. Latest ones are pretty dope tho, IME.

866-RON-0-FEZ 4mo ago

Thunderbolt docks being absolute dogshit is universal across the market, it's not limited to one manufacturer. Apple doesn't have this problem because they don't even make docks they're so problematic. Enjoy dongles, Mac users. Modern docks usually run their own internal OS and require frequent reboots to even attempt to appear stable. The worst part is most use docks to get Ethernet, but docks nearly universally use low quality USB Ethernet controllers internally (vs PCI) making the whole exercise rather pointless.

musictubes 4mo ago
Is it too late to point out that what most people call dongles are actually adapters? A dongle doesn’t have any pass through.
rconti 4mo ago
I've been super happy with my Caldigit TS3 for my various Macs.
- adamfarhadi 4mo ago
  Same here. My TS3 Plus is around 7 years old now and I’m still daily driving it. Haven’t experienced any issues at all and I’ve used it with various Windows/MacOS/Linux computers.
  - twoWhlsGud 4mo ago
    I got my TS3 after it had been out awhile and it's been great for me, also. Wonder how the current (TB5) versions are. They generally seem to take a few (?) years to really get the firmware working properly.
robotresearcher 4mo ago
Apple’s displays are docks in that they supply power, usb ports, camera, sound, and recently thunderbolt pass through. They put a big chunk of an old iPad in there to run the thing. Overkill but they own the electronics and software.

yndoendo 4mo ago

You have to pay me to use Microsoft. There software has become garbage and alternatives are far more better. I cannot think of a single product they have I will be willing to use personally. Hardware, Frameworks has replaced any other OEM in the market for me. You have to pay me to use Dell, HP, Microsoft, Asus, Apple, ...

eboy 4mo ago

[dead]

Krasnol 4mo ago

I've been managing dozens of Surfaces for work. Never had any issues with them. Solid hardware and a good alternative to the Lenovo Thinkpads we're also using but "don't look so nice".

paj26 4mo ago

I similarly bought a surface laptop during Covid WFH - better Remote Desktop experience for the windows shop I was working at. Assumed that spending the extra for premium Microsoft hardware, “it just works” - not at all. I ended up using my Mac’s USB-C Ethernet dongle because the dock would just lose the Ethernet driver. Insane for an ecosystem fully owned by one company, but very telling of the company.

rbanffy 4mo ago

> local Microsoft Store The backrooms version of an Apple Store… I’ve been to precisely one and it was, indeed, a sad experience. You’d also need to pay me a lot to use Windows. I even have an assigned Windows virtual desktop at work, but I also have a MacBook for actual work - the VDI is only used for the stuff that doesn’t quite work right on Macs.

twoWhlsGud 4mo ago
They weren't exactly hopping, but having a local store where you could get hardware support was a big deal, for me at least. I stopped buying Surface devices and switched entirely back to Apple for anything mobile when they closed the MS store near me.

tannhaeuser 4mo ago

I only have used the power connector on a Surface Go tablet but have really no complaints. I've never been much of an MS person, but with that thing Windows (10) certainly left on a high note for me.

chollida1 4mo ago

Oh wow. I love mine, so much that I've never been back to the apple laptop eco system since. The two surface laptops I've had are the best laptops I've owned. The build it rock solid, its trivial to run wsl for a Linux environment and I still get a windows environment for work with excel, etc. The keys don't come off the keyboard like they do with my old mac chicklet style laptop keys and even my 10 year old can still drive multiple external monitors.