5 ms·

Outsourcing graphic design at 99designs.com

20 points by hermitcrab 18y ago

jraines 18y ago
For one consulting project I outsourced logo design to 99designs.com with a $300 "contest" and was absolutely blown away by the quantity and quality of submissions. I got probably a dozen out of 80+ submissions that would've been perfectly suitable.
- asmithmd1 18y ago
  I agree - I got great value for a $350 logo contest. The two designers whose logos I liked the best participate in many contests at once and win about 10% of the ones they enter. They must look at the prize money and divide by 10 for their expected payout and then know how much time to put into each contest.
- ejs 18y ago
  I was cheap and only was able to offer $105 for a logo I had done on there, I still had results I thought were great.
tptacek 18y ago
Watch out, or the graphic design police will write you up for soliciting "Spec Work" --- http://no-spec.com http://no-spec.com.
- dablya 18y ago
  " At the end of the day, there is a certain irony in spec work. A prospect requesting it is ultimately saying, 'My project isn’t important enough to hire a professional who will take the time to understand my situation and goals and invest the time needed to create a suitable solution.' " Is there something wrong with is? If I want to create a webapp and have no clue about graphic design, I would be happy with something that looks ok. I'm not looking for somebody to understand my situation, I just want something better then a border="1" table with default buttons.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    What's wrong is that you won't be paying "them" to do it. In other words, no.
    - tptacek 18y ago
      What are you talking about? Soliciting spec work and then shoplifting it without paying is exactly that --- theft. But asking designers to take potentially billable hours to audition is also just that: an audition. If you win, you get paid. Obviously you're not going to get Happy Cog or Coudal to participate in spec projects, but that just seems like the market working; proven talent doesn't need to audition, because they get their pick of projects. Indie filmmakers probably won't ask Ed Norton to audition either.
      - deleted 18y ago
        [deleted]
      - run4yourlives 18y ago
        You're misreading my comment. "them" means those that support no-spec campaigns, not designers in general. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
        tptacek 18y ago
        Sorry, it's a holiday, so I'm geeking out on message boards bigtime to avoid actual work.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    Of course there's nothing wrong with it. I want my offices to look nice, too, but I don't need a weeklong branding consultation to figure out what kind of potted plants best complement my company's persona. I think this is a classic business model problem with consultative services: 60-80% of the work is, in fact, cookie-cutter stuff that can be executed by any barely-competant practioner, and the remaining 20-40% doesn't easily command the premium required to staff an expert firm. So firms pretend that the low-margin 60% doesn't exist. I don't get why graphic design, alone among all professional service practices, should be exempt from project risk. Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship; I've tried to do the same thing with my clients, prospects, and peers.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  Reminds me so much of the RIAA. It sucks when it affects your livelihood, but you just can't fight a changing market. Artistic skills and talents are commodities, shared by many. All we're seeing now is that artificial barriers that have been previously created are no longer sustainable.
- hermitcrab 18y ago
  It is hardly surprising that design agencies with huge hourly fees don't like sites like 99designs.com. But I won't be shedding a tear for them. I am a bit more concerned about the fact that the vast majority of work on 99designs.com (much of it excellent) doesn't make a penny for the designer. I guess the designers know what they are doing though.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- Encosia 18y ago
  There's some potent irony in the fact that the no-spec site looks as horrendous as it does.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  no-spec.com appears to be in violation of federal RICO laws. http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles/2008/smithfield_union_racketeering.php http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles/2008/smithfield_union_r... Smithfield says the union, the United Food and Commercial Workers International, and its officials violated RICO by issuing press releases, contacting civil rights and environmental groups, organizing protests and calling for boycotts.
- sireat 18y ago
  It appears there are two ways to submit design briefs(job offers) on 99designs, one guarantees money to winner and one does not. Former seems to me the "right" way. OTOH, it does seem "wrong" that 80 people are competing over one job. Insert a mental image of a multitude of starving artists in their huts... Still, 99designs must not be too bad for young up and coming designers, similar to how getacoder "exploits" young overseas programmers.
- access_denied 18y ago
  Why you should not do spec-work: http://www.zeldman.com/2007/08/14/dont-design-on-spec/ http://www.zeldman.com/2007/08/14/dont-design-on-spec/
timcederman 18y ago
Is Andy Brice on HN? I just sent a link to Perfect Table Plan to my brother who is planning his wedding currently, and thinks it's awesome.
- hermitcrab 18y ago
  Yes, and I am not above plugging my own articles. ;0) Glad your brother likes PerfectTablePlan.
patio11 18y ago
With the price of custom graphical work these days, either from 99designs.com or from your favorite graphical talent in the 3rd world (if you find one you like and works well with you, hang onto them -- solid gold), you can justify quality original graphics for projects that would never have merited it before. My little brother is trying to break into comics without drawing ability -- so he's outsourcing it, for prices that are a) cheap enough for an American college student to afford and b) impressive for an Indian college student to command. Here's a page: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b.... Take a guess at how much that page cost. You guessed too high. No, really, you did.
- trapper 18y ago
  How much?
  - cdr 18y ago
    Too much, whatever it was.
  - patio11 18y ago
    I think it was $15.
andrewhyde 18y ago
I've written very negatively about spec work in the past, and because of this I get approached at conferences to discuss this issue. I've now met 5 people doing work for 99designs and other spec work sites with an intent of coming back later in a legal form. It is all about intent, and you are asking a designer to do custom work for you with the intent not to pay. I've said it is inherently evil, and somethings like this are going to happen. I like the saying "there is no such thing as a great designer, only a great client." You drive the design, and if you resort to sites like these, you open yourself up to a slew of legal issues, and wave the flag that you are not willing to work on one of the most important public parts of you company.
- hermitcrab 18y ago
  You can only use the work you pay for and nobody is forcing any of the designers to compete. So I don't see your point.
- c1sc0 18y ago
  I guess it depends on which stage of your website development you are in. When I'm bootstrapping it and I'm not even sure whether the idea will be a success, I'm not willing to invest in anything more than good enough. When I have some empirical evidence that the idea will fly (e.g. a/b tests, first sale closed), only then will I get in touch with a great designer to do custom work. As a plus, I will probably have discovered what I really want from the designer by that time and will be able to drive the design in a better way.
- tptacek 18y ago
  The most important public part of your company is your graphic design? I'm sorry.

20 points by hermitcrab 18y ago

For one consulting project I outsourced logo design to 99designs.com with a $300 "contest" and was absolutely blown away by the quantity and quality of submissions. I got probably a dozen out of 80+ submissions that would've been perfectly suitable.

asmithmd1 18y ago
I agree - I got great value for a $350 logo contest. The two designers whose logos I liked the best participate in many contests at once and win about 10% of the ones they enter. They must look at the prize money and divide by 10 for their expected payout and then know how much time to put into each contest.
ejs 18y ago
I was cheap and only was able to offer $105 for a logo I had done on there, I still had results I thought were great.

tptacek 18y ago

Watch out, or the graphic design police will write you up for soliciting "Spec Work" --- http://no-spec.com http://no-spec.com.

dablya 18y ago
" At the end of the day, there is a certain irony in spec work. A prospect requesting it is ultimately saying, 'My project isn’t important enough to hire a professional who will take the time to understand my situation and goals and invest the time needed to create a suitable solution.' " Is there something wrong with is? If I want to create a webapp and have no clue about graphic design, I would be happy with something that looks ok. I'm not looking for somebody to understand my situation, I just want something better then a border="1" table with default buttons.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  What's wrong is that you won't be paying "them" to do it. In other words, no.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    What are you talking about? Soliciting spec work and then shoplifting it without paying is exactly that --- theft. But asking designers to take potentially billable hours to audition is also just that: an audition. If you win, you get paid. Obviously you're not going to get Happy Cog or Coudal to participate in spec projects, but that just seems like the market working; proven talent doesn't need to audition, because they get their pick of projects. Indie filmmakers probably won't ask Ed Norton to audition either.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      You're misreading my comment. "them" means those that support no-spec campaigns, not designers in general. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
      - tptacek 18y ago
        Sorry, it's a holiday, so I'm geeking out on message boards bigtime to avoid actual work.
- tptacek 18y ago
  Of course there's nothing wrong with it. I want my offices to look nice, too, but I don't need a weeklong branding consultation to figure out what kind of potted plants best complement my company's persona. I think this is a classic business model problem with consultative services: 60-80% of the work is, in fact, cookie-cutter stuff that can be executed by any barely-competant practioner, and the remaining 20-40% doesn't easily command the premium required to staff an expert firm. So firms pretend that the low-margin 60% doesn't exist. I don't get why graphic design, alone among all professional service practices, should be exempt from project risk. Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship; I've tried to do the same thing with my clients, prospects, and peers.
run4yourlives 18y ago
Reminds me so much of the RIAA. It sucks when it affects your livelihood, but you just can't fight a changing market. Artistic skills and talents are commodities, shared by many. All we're seeing now is that artificial barriers that have been previously created are no longer sustainable.
hermitcrab 18y ago
It is hardly surprising that design agencies with huge hourly fees don't like sites like 99designs.com. But I won't be shedding a tear for them. I am a bit more concerned about the fact that the vast majority of work on 99designs.com (much of it excellent) doesn't make a penny for the designer. I guess the designers know what they are doing though.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
Encosia 18y ago
There's some potent irony in the fact that the no-spec site looks as horrendous as it does.
gravitycop 18y ago
no-spec.com appears to be in violation of federal RICO laws. http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles/2008/smithfield_union_racketeering.php http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles/2008/smithfield_union_r... Smithfield says the union, the United Food and Commercial Workers International, and its officials violated RICO by issuing press releases, contacting civil rights and environmental groups, organizing protests and calling for boycotts.
sireat 18y ago
It appears there are two ways to submit design briefs(job offers) on 99designs, one guarantees money to winner and one does not. Former seems to me the "right" way. OTOH, it does seem "wrong" that 80 people are competing over one job. Insert a mental image of a multitude of starving artists in their huts... Still, 99designs must not be too bad for young up and coming designers, similar to how getacoder "exploits" young overseas programmers.
access_denied 18y ago
Why you should not do spec-work: http://www.zeldman.com/2007/08/14/dont-design-on-spec/ http://www.zeldman.com/2007/08/14/dont-design-on-spec/

timcederman 18y ago

Is Andy Brice on HN? I just sent a link to Perfect Table Plan to my brother who is planning his wedding currently, and thinks it's awesome.

hermitcrab 18y ago
Yes, and I am not above plugging my own articles. ;0) Glad your brother likes PerfectTablePlan.

patio11 18y ago

With the price of custom graphical work these days, either from 99designs.com or from your favorite graphical talent in the 3rd world (if you find one you like and works well with you, hang onto them -- solid gold), you can justify quality original graphics for projects that would never have merited it before. My little brother is trying to break into comics without drawing ability -- so he's outsourcing it, for prices that are a) cheap enough for an American college student to afford and b) impressive for an Indian college student to command. Here's a page: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b.... Take a guess at how much that page cost. You guessed too high. No, really, you did.

trapper 18y ago
How much?
- cdr 18y ago
  Too much, whatever it was.
- patio11 18y ago
  I think it was $15.

andrewhyde 18y ago

I've written very negatively about spec work in the past, and because of this I get approached at conferences to discuss this issue. I've now met 5 people doing work for 99designs and other spec work sites with an intent of coming back later in a legal form. It is all about intent, and you are asking a designer to do custom work for you with the intent not to pay. I've said it is inherently evil, and somethings like this are going to happen. I like the saying "there is no such thing as a great designer, only a great client." You drive the design, and if you resort to sites like these, you open yourself up to a slew of legal issues, and wave the flag that you are not willing to work on one of the most important public parts of you company.

hermitcrab 18y ago
You can only use the work you pay for and nobody is forcing any of the designers to compete. So I don't see your point.
c1sc0 18y ago
I guess it depends on which stage of your website development you are in. When I'm bootstrapping it and I'm not even sure whether the idea will be a success, I'm not willing to invest in anything more than good enough. When I have some empirical evidence that the idea will fly (e.g. a/b tests, first sale closed), only then will I get in touch with a great designer to do custom work. As a plus, I will probably have discovered what I really want from the designer by that time and will be able to drive the design in a better way.
tptacek 18y ago
The most important public part of your company is your graphic design? I'm sorry.